Battery prices

[indalo]

I was relieved to hear today that a replacement battery for my Gazelle will cost me at current prices, £267.00 inc VAT. As it happens, my battery is still holding a full charge very well and I don't need a replacement at the present time.

It's only a 26V 7.2A battery but it does the job although perhaps not with the same grunt as some of the more modern machinery.

That price was from a Gazelle dealer so I'm not unhappy with that considering the cost of batteries on some of the more up-to-date bikes that many forum members use. With what Gazelle dealers charge for their Gold battery on their front hub driven bikes, I could almost have two of the ones for my bike!

Everything's relative of course and I'm not going to win any hill sections in any event anywhere but I'm confident of getting to the top of the hill, albeit slowly. That's good enough for a Dutch town bike I suppose. Nobody gives a second glance at my other bikes but many acknowledge the Gazelle and want to know more about ebikes. Only my Jack Russells have ever grabbed the attention of strangers in that way.

Indalo

 

[PennyFarthing]

What is the Gazelle? Any links?

 

[indalo]

I'm never too sure if I add a link correctly or not but if this doesn't work, just Google it and you'll get some information. I don't think they make the Easy Glider any more but Kalkhoff, who are well represented in the UK do similar models with much more powerful batteries. There are several other companies who utilise the Panasonic crank drive system and opinions are mixed as to the efficacy of a centrally driven, through-the-gears set up compared to front or rear hub-driven bikes.

If this type of bike interests you, the guy to ask is flecc as he understands how they work and is able to compare their performance from his own experience with hub-driven bikes. Many other forum members have views on the drive system variations so you won't be short of opinions if you have questions to ask.



Gazelle Electric bikes - Gazelle (Rolls Royce) in Electric bikes - GAZELLE Easy Glider Ladies 24v Lithium


ps I don't know how old that ad is from Powered Bicycles but it's still online and I've learnt that my bike has a 24V battery and not 26V, as I thought. Not that it makes much difference. Leaving performance figures aside, it's still a nice machine to poodle around on and it's well hammered together.



Regards,
Indalo

 

[flecc]

You were right Indalo, your battery is 26 volts, or to be very precise, 25.9 volts made up of seven nominal 3.7 volt cells in series. Likwise, many bikes with lithium batteries quoted as 36 volts are really 37 volts, using ten 3.7 volt cells.

Some suppliers just stick to the old 24 volt and 36 volt designations through habit.
.

 

[indalo]

Thanks flecc. Understood!

Regards,

Indalo

 

[morphix]

I was relieved to hear today that a replacement battery for my Gazelle will cost me at current prices, £267.00 inc VAT. As it happens, my battery is still holding a full charge very well and I don't need a replacement at the present time.

It's only a 26V 7.2A battery but it does the job although perhaps not with the same grunt as some of the more modern machinery.

That price was from a Gazelle dealer so I'm not unhappy with that considering the cost of batteries on some of the more up-to-date bikes that many forum members use. With what Gazelle dealers charge for their Gold battery on their front hub driven bikes, I could almost have two of the ones for my bike!

Everything's relative of course and I'm not going to win any hill sections in any event anywhere but I'm confident of getting to the top of the hill, albeit slowly. That's good enough for a Dutch town bike I suppose. Nobody gives a second glance at my other bikes but many acknowledge the Gazelle and want to know more about ebikes. Only my Jack Russells have ever grabbed the attention of strangers in that way.

Indalo

Although still quite high, I think that's not too bad considering the price of some batteries costing £400-500+ which I think bears little relation to the manufacturing cost. This is one of the reasons why I went the self-build route as I didn't want to be locked into dealer prices for future battery replacements. My batteries cost me £90 for 5Ah and at this price I don't care if I have to replace them annually!

 

[indalo]

Yes Morphix, battery prices enrage me and I have ranted more than once in this forum about it. Things being as they are however, like you, I considered the possibility of building my own replacement when the time comes.

There is a price point at which I would do that but I'm uncertain which number would cause me to say, "Rollocks, I'll make one myself then!" When I discovered the current price from a dealer is £267, that really came as a pleasant surprise after reading how much the latest range of high power batteries cost. Obviously, 267 is not the number!

Frankly, I'm astonished that my existing battery is still strong as the bike is almost certainly a 2007 model. As I bought it through ebay, I have no way of knowing for sure whether the battery is original or a replacement. The bike seemed "showroom perfect" when I got it and looked as if it had never been ridden in anger. Even if it were a brand new battery in 2009 when I purchased the bike, it's still holding up well, (5 sec button hold test shows 5 lamps) so if it lasts till 2012, the cost factor per year is not unreasonable for the pleasure I derive from riding the bike.

For the benefit of PennyFarthing, (and indeed anyone else who might be remotely interested) I have lifted a You Tube clip advertising Gazelle's hub drive system and I attach the link below, (I hope it works!) The You Tube link was on the home page of the London dealer who quoted me for the battery.



YouTube - Kanal von dutchbikehire

There's a couple of other little clips advertising Gazelle ebikes on You Tube and I wish there were more clips from the leading players in the UK market showing off their products to best advantage...are you listening David Miall, Bob Wales, Lloyd Clarkson and the guys at 50 Cycles?

I don't imagine it would cost all that much to produce a short film piece so even the smaller outfits could probably find some budget for what is a nice little piece of advertising. Xipi, Ezee & Alien might want to consider it?

Just a thought!

Regards,
Indalo

 

[tangent]

I do find it very hard to understand the high prices being charged for batteries in this country. My recent purchase of a 26V 10Ah LiNiCoMn battery from BMSBattery cost me £85 including a BMS, charger and delivery. It lacked a case and I did not pay any duty or VAT. Even so, BMSBattery must be making money out of this, so how is it justifiable to charge £267 for a 7.2Ah retail battery? Is the case gold plated?

 

[flecc]

Frankly, I'm astonished that my existing battery is still strong as the bike is almost certainly a 2007 model.

These early Panasonic batteries can last well if only lightly and gently used, and your Gazelle's Panasonic unit is set to slightly lower than normal power levels and I believe has no high power mode. All this eases the stresses on the battery.

Several years ago 50cycles were the importers for the Panasonic Will folder, using the crank drive unit with a small lithium battery, probably the first ever on an e-bike.

Tim at 50cycles was riding their stock bike around on it's original battery at least five years later.
.

 

[morphix]

I do find it very hard to understand the high prices being charged for batteries in this country. My recent purchase of a 26V 10Ah LiNiCoMn battery from BMSBattery cost me £85 including a BMS, charger and delivery. It lacked a case and I did not pay any duty or VAT. Even so, BMSBattery must be making money out of this, so how is it justifiable to charge £267 for a 7.2Ah retail battery? Is the case gold plated?

I think a lot of it comes from the need to guarantee batteries for 12 months or more and perhaps some uncertainty over the newer technology and how well it perform/last? Perhaps the retail price level is a protection against cost of replacing..

Also some batteries are obviously custom made to specific designs (more so on the casing and BMS perhaps) and maybe the production runs are too low still to bring the cost down to affordable levels?

When you factor this in with the profit margins in the supply chain, you end up with quite high prices compared to the cost of "raw" batteries you can get from China without cases..

Perhaps then, there's a new market emerging here for people to start offering cheaper compatible batteries for all different bikes, in much the same way as the ink cartridge industry. Just my thoughts..

 

[Lloyd]

Yes Morphix, battery prices enrage me and I have ranted more than once in this forum about it. Things being as they are however, like you, I considered the possibility of building my own replacement when the time comes.

There is a price point at which I would do that but I'm uncertain which number would cause me to say, "Rollocks, I'll make one myself then!" When I discovered the current price from a dealer is £267, that really came as a pleasant surprise after reading how much the latest range of high power batteries cost. Obviously, 267 is not the number!

Frankly, I'm astonished that my existing battery is still strong as the bike is almost certainly a 2007 model. As I bought it through ebay, I have no way of knowing for sure whether the battery is original or a replacement. The bike seemed "showroom perfect" when I got it and looked as if it had never been ridden in anger. Even if it were a brand new battery in 2009 when I purchased the bike, it's still holding up well, (5 sec button hold test shows 5 lamps) so if it lasts till 2012, the cost factor per year is not unreasonable for the pleasure I derive from riding the bike.

For the benefit of PennyFarthing, (and indeed anyone else who might be remotely interested) I have lifted a You Tube clip advertising Gazelle's hub drive system and I attach the link below, (I hope it works!) The You Tube link was on the home page of the London dealer who quoted me for the battery.



YouTube - Kanal von dutchbikehire

There's a couple of other little clips advertising Gazelle ebikes on You Tube and I wish there were more clips from the leading players in the UK market showing off their products to best advantage...are you listening David Miall, Bob Wales, Lloyd Clarkson and the guys at 50 Cycles?

I don't imagine it would cost all that much to produce a short film piece so even the smaller outfits could probably find some budget for what is a nice little piece of advertising. Xipi, Ezee & Alien might want to consider it?

I couldn't agree more. We have 3 videos at present, which will be upoaded shortly, I will post links on here as and when they are available. We are working on another 2, which will be completed within the next 2-3 weeks.

Also on the battery front, I suppose now is the time to mention that the replacement cost of our Raleigh Velo-Cite or Velo-Trail bike is currently £310 RRP. This is 36v 10Ah, and carries a 2 year warranty.

 

[tangent]

I think a lot of it comes from the need to guarantee batteries for 12 months or more and perhaps some uncertainty over the newer technology and how well it perform/last? Perhaps the retail price level is a protection against cost of replacing..

Also some batteries are obviously custom made to specific designs (more so on the casing and BMS perhaps) and maybe the production runs are too low still to bring the cost down to affordable levels?

When you factor this in with the profit margins in the supply chain, you end up with quite high prices compared to the cost of "raw" batteries you can get from China without cases..

Perhaps then, there's a new market emerging here for people to start offering cheaper compatible batteries for all different bikes, in much the same way as the ink cartridge industry. Just my thoughts..

Offering compatible batteries may be difficult due to the totally proprietary nature of the cases, but I would have thought it would be relatively easy for someone to come up with a refurbisment service, whereby the cells and possibly BMS are replaced. This could even be produced in a kit form, similar to cartridge refill kits. I think this would be of interest to people even if a short (3 month) guarantee was given.

I occasionally try to find lithium cells that would fit in one of my old Lafree NiMH cases. The volume is sufficient for a 10Ah battery, but so far I have not identified cells that would fit the particular geometry. It is getting close though.

 

[indalo]

your Gazelle's Panasonic unit is set to slightly lower than normal power levels and I believe has no high power mode.

You're quite correct flecc. Mine has only two levels of assistance and I think the later models had three modes.

I'm interested in what you say about lower than normal power levels in as much as, is that achieved electrically or mechanically? My reason for asking is that I'm aware most Panasonic crank drives utilise a 9 tooth motor sprocket but mine has an 8 tooth one. When I first noticed that some time ago, I thought it seemed odd after what I'd read in your guide. I counted the teeth carefully and it's definitely an 8 tooth model.

Would that lower the power?

Regards,
Indalo

 

[morphix]

Offering compatible batteries may be difficult due to the totally proprietary nature of the cases, but I would have thought it would be relatively easy for someone to come up with a refurbisment service, whereby the cells and possibly BMS are replaced. This could even be produced in a kit form, similar to cartridge refill kits. I think this would be of interest to people even if a short (3 month) guarantee was given.

I occasionally try to find lithium cells that would fit in one of my old Lafree NiMH cases. The volume is sufficient for a 10Ah battery, but so far I have not identified cells that would fit the particular geometry. It is getting close though.

Absolutely. It's surely better for the environment too to have these old batteries recycled like you say by firms rather than being thrown away.

I hope you manage to find your cells. If you can successfully do it, it would lead the way for other owners to follow suit.. if this type of thing was offered as a service it might force manufacturers and dealers to start lowering battery replacement prices to keep competitive, although we have not seen that happen in the ink cartridge industry have we? Prices seem to keep going up on originals, it's ridiculous.

EDIT: Just a thought..have you looked at LiFePo4 cells? I use these myself..these flexible foil bag style cells surely must lend themselves to fitting in housings with limited space, better than those hard round cells?

 

[Biged]

Also on the battery front, I suppose now is the time to mention that the replacement cost of our Raleigh Velo-Cite or Velo-Trail bike is currently £310 RRP. This is 36v 10Ah, and carries a 2 year warranty.

Hi Lloyd, what about your Dover batteries?

 

[Lloyd]

The RRP on those is £400 currently.

 

[flecc]

You're quite correct flecc. Mine has only two levels of assistance and I think the later models had three modes.

I'm interested in what you say about lower than normal power levels in as much as, is that achieved electrically or mechanically? My reason for asking is that I'm aware most Panasonic crank drives utilise a 9 tooth motor sprocket but mine has an 8 tooth one. When I first noticed that some time ago, I thought it seemed odd after what I'd read in your guide. I counted the teeth carefully and it's definitely an 8 tooth model.

Would that lower the power?

Regards,
Indalo

It's set a touch lower electronically in your unit, and to compensate for that the motor drive sprocket is a bit smaller to make the drive easier. The end result is a very slightly lower performance and slightly shorter range for the capacity, but higher long term reliability. I think that's very sensible for a utility bike.

It was noticeable that when Panasonic introduced the high power mode and started to increase overall powers, Gazelle moved to their Innergy model with a hub motor instead, also moderate power. With few hills in their Dutch home market that makes sense, sufficient performance while retaining high reliability.
.

 

[rog_london]

It was noticeable that when Panasonic introduced the high power mode and started to increase overall powers, Gazelle moved to their Innergy model with a hub motor instead, also moderate power. With few hills in their Dutch home market that makes sense, sufficient performance while retaining high reliability.
.

I was wondering about the latest Panasonics with 2:1 power available - whereas reliability has been pretty good in the past, I can't help thinking that the derailleur gets a hell of a hammering with in effect three riders' input. That would be especially the case with the top of the range job which has a ten-speed derailleur, and a thin chain to match.

My roadie-riding pal in Warlingham has a hard time with worn cassettes and chains and that's with just him providing the power (he thinks ebikes are an abomination as I've mentioned before).

People who ride tandems competitively are inclined to go for the hub gears for this reason.

Rog.

 

[flecc]

Yes, I think there will be some higher costs for derailleur maintenance for those riders who use high power mode, and especially in hilly areas. However, none of the current bikes use 10 speed and 9 speed is a rarity, most e-bikes use up to 8 speed derailleurs.

Also there won't necessarily be more power transmitted, since many riders will use the benefit of 2 times high power mode by just doing less themselves. This is frequently what happens with the highest powered hub-motor bikes, riders just taking it easy and letting the motor take the strain.

I do see a bright future for the new 8 and 11 speed Shimano hub gears though, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was quite a shift back to hub gears after 40 years of derailleur dominance. It's significant that SRAM are currently making a bigger investment in hub gears as well, shifting all production to China.
.

 

[tangent]

Absolutely. It's surely better for the environment too to have these old batteries recycled like you say by firms rather than being thrown away.

I hope you manage to find your cells. If you can successfully do it, it would lead the way for other owners to follow suit.. if this type of thing was offered as a service it might force manufacturers and dealers to start lowering battery replacement prices to keep competitive, although we have not seen that happen in the ink cartridge industry have we? Prices seem to keep going up on originals, it's ridiculous.

EDIT: Just a thought..have you looked at LiFePo4 cells? I use these myself..these flexible foil bag style cells surely must lend themselves to fitting in housings with limited space, better than those hard round cells?

Do you know the size of the cells in your 5Ah pack? Ideally I would like to use LiFePO4 cells if I can make them fit due to the increased longevity over the LiMnO2 or LiNiCoMn types. However, they tend to be bigger for the same capacity and I need 8 in series intead of 7. I am getting on fine with my cheap BMSBattery battery at the moment. I keep it inside a padded camera bag (ideal if anyone needs a battery bag for soft celled battery) and then put this in a pannier. Obviously I would prefer to use a standard battery case if I could get cells to fit!