Best mod for (last year's) Torq on hills ?

[Planetcooler]

I have been using a Torq to commute in Cornwall for the last year. Approx 16 mile round trip in hilly terrain - Li Ion battery. Beginning to get power trip outs on the hills. Looking around the forums/web I am minded to make one or both of the following changes. Would appreciate any input on whether either of these will really improve things. (Sod's law that they have just introduced the new model (Torq Trekking) to address this issue!!)

1) Reduce the chain ring from 52T to say 42 or 44T ? (£20.00 say)

2) Switch to Ni-Mh battery and charger (£250 say - ouch).

Apart from this rather dramatic problem (ie stop dead at the end of an uphill pull) - the bike is great!

Many thanks.

 

[Ian]

I have modified mine with a 38 chainring coupled with an 11-28 cassette, I already had a NiMh battery so the cutting out was never a problem.

The important thing to remember is that gearing changes don't make the bike climb hills any better on its own, it just makes the riders contribution count more. My own very low gearing is optimised for my rather short legs which are most suited to fast spinning meaning that even in bottom gear I can still pedal at a speed at which the motor is delivering useful torque. There is no getting away from the fact that the Torq does need substantial rider input on steep hills so any gearing changes should be aimed at matching the rider to the machine.

In my own case I feel that the gearing changes were a success, enabling the combined efforts of man and machine to negotiate previously impossible hills, however there have been other users who have modified the gearing without success, probably due to their inability to make sufficient contribution as the bike still needs help up hills.

If a gear ratio change makes a big difference to your contribution then then it may lighten the load on the battery and reduce the cutting out problem, however it is worth noting that the cutting out is likely to become more frequent in low winter temperatures.

A chainring change is a cheap modification so probably worth doing anyway, and your guess of £20 is on the high side, even a local shop should be quite a bit cheaper than that, mine was less than a fiver from an ebay seller. My experience is that small changes don't make that much noticeable difference so 44T would be a good start.

 

[HarryB]

Can I ask - are you running the Torq restricted? I am assuming you are and to be honest you have done well if the battery is only just cutting out on hills after lasting a year. I am in the same situation and the only way to avoid the cut outs is to put more effort in (and/or put less motor power in). I am coming to the conclusion that a move to NiMH would be in order - expensive I know, but cheaper in the long run (especially as your Li-ion is reaching then end of its life and is the same price as the NiMH with a charger).

 

[Planetcooler]

Torqs on hills

Ian and Barry - thanks for your replies.

Barry - yes I am running restricted - I tried de-restricting last year with great effect on the level - and disaster on the hills!

I think I am going for a smaller chain ring - I appreciate what Ian is saying - and have realised that you have to keep the speed up for the Torq to develop full torque - if you see what I mean.

I would still like to know if either of you think that the Ni-Mh battery is less likely to trip? I'm not fussed about mega range or mega speed. The whole exercise is to make it possible to routinely commute from village to office and back. The tripping out is a real nause. I was / am quite capable of getting a normal push bike up the hills - without having to get off to reset the key!

 

[fishingpaul]

nobody ever seems to mention weight,a persons weight can make a huge difference to range and climbing ability,for example somebody weighing 11 stone would put far less strain on battery and motor, than someone weighing 17 stone,and would obviously not have trouble with cutting out on hills.people like to mention ranges achieved on their bikes,this means nothing if you do not mention your weight.

 

[Planetcooler]

Weight !

Yes - I was wondering if I hadn't been using the bike enough and had put on some extra pounds/ kgs. My ancient scales tell me I'm 14 stone - which is bad news - perhaps if I lost a stone the trips would go away!

Apologies to HarryB for referring to you as Barry - should have used the preview window before I pressed Send.

 

[HarryB]

I
I would still like to know if either of you think that the Ni-Mh battery is less likely to trip?

I think the concensus of opinion is that NiMH is unlikely to trip in the way that Li-ion does, being able to deliver the current for longer. Flecc may have some more authorative views on this. The downside is that they are heavier and hold less charge. in my view there doesn't seem much point in holding a greater charge and not being able to deliver it when you need it (on hills). The main point it that after a year of heavy use the Li-ion will be shot and the NiMH will have some life left in it. £250 a year seems quite a high price to pay in batteries (£100 a year doesn't seem so bad).

By all means change the gearing but I think in the end you are delaying the inevitable - a replacement battery.

 

[flecc]

nobody ever seems to mention weight,a persons weight can make a huge difference to range and climbing ability,for example somebody weighing 11 stone would put far less strain on battery and motor, than someone weighing 17 stone,and would obviously not have trouble with cutting out on hills.people like to mention ranges achieved on their bikes,this means nothing if you do not mention your weight.

There are too many variables though, and they affect each other. In a flat area weight would have no appreciable effect on range for example, so just adding in one extra factor doesn't necessarily help. Other important ones are personal strength and cycling ability, and age, often related to that strength. These differences are often very large.

Both the items spoken of above are helpful, but Planetcooler's mention of the use of the maximum torque point at around 12 mph is very relevant and one I've often raised. That's why I don't like reducing the cycling gear too much, though of course such reductions still work since very much lower powers are required for slow climbing. I just don't like very slow climbing though!

But overall I think the most important thing for hill climbing is the change to NiMh, which won't cut out and will just slog on right up to motor stall point.

By contrast, Li-ion can cut out due to chemical exhaustion even when used well within specification if a fairly high load continues long enough, such as on a prolongued hill.
.

 

[Planetcooler]

Battery prices ?

Thanks to all for this useful info. £100 for NiMh ? I was quoted £190 for NiMh vs £250 for Li - sounds like I should be shopping around ?

 

[Ian]

NiMh batteries don't suffer at all from premature trips, even de-restricted on Porthtowan's infamous engine hill!(although the same cannot be said of this rider )The only time it I've known it to happen is when completely exhausted.

As you are not seeking great range it would be possible to use the bike de-restricted with a NiMh battery, and this makes a big difference to climbing ability.

I think Harry's £100 was a yearly NiMh estimate rather than the actual cost of the battery, based on the fact that a NiMh battery is likely to last longer than a lithium. Current price is £200 or £250 with charger from 50cycles who are the sole suppliers.

 

[HarryB]

Thanks to all for this useful info. £100 for NiMh ? I was quoted £190 for NiMh vs £250 for Li - sounds like I should be shopping around ?

Yes, on the not un-reasonable assumption that a NIMH battery would last 2 years, it would be £100 a year. Of course it all depends on how you use the bike, if you use it lightly with no deep discharges then I suppose a Li-ion battery might last 2 years. Li-ions are relatively new but I can say that mine is going to struggle to reach its first birthday (if its present rate of decline continues).

One question about the cutting out for somebody who has both batteries. Is it the controller that is cutting the power or the battery? After each cut out the controller has to be re-set I am assuming that the battery is cutting out and that is tripping the controller. I don't want to go down the NiMH route and find that I have an over-sensative controller and am faced with the same problem.

 

[Beeping-Sleauty]

£100 NiMh

Thanks to all for this useful info. £100 for NiMh ? I was quoted £190 for NiMh vs £250 for Li - sounds like I should be shopping around ?

Yes, there are some around, i bought one on Ebay £102 including the charger, it arrived today, it's a brand new 36v 10ah, looking forward to seeing how it performs in comparison to my year old SLAs.

 

[HarryB]

Yes, there are some around, i bought one on Ebay £102 including the charger, it arrived today, it's a brand new 36v 10ah, looking forward to seeing how it performs in comparison to my year old SLAs.

Have you the ebay transaction number so we can have a look? If it isn't for an Ezee it would need quite a bit of modification to get it to work.

 

[JamesC]

For the past couple of months, I have been using a 45T chainwheel feeding into 32-12 cassette (very similar setup to ITSPETEINIT).
I tried one or two variations on this theme to try and improve my input further on very steep hills, but I could not improve on this combination for my particular pedal power and speed.

I use the bike restricted, being happy with a speed just above 15.5 mph on the flat to enjoy the countryside and avoid big potholes.

The difference compared to the much higher gearing of the standard Torq was very significant and makes the Torq a real pleasure to ride. It has got me up some steep inclines (but I failed on the steep climb up to the claypits behind Par in Cornwall).

My own input is improving, but the effort from the Li Ion is dropping off - I am planning to go down the NiMH route in the near future.

James

 

[Beeping-Sleauty]

Ebay NiMh

Have you the ebay transaction number so we can have a look? If it isn't for an Ezee it would need quite a bit of modification to get it to work.

Hi HarryB,

see:
36v 8ah Ni Mh Battery Pack for Synergie, Eco etc E Bike - eBay Bikes, Cycling, Sporting Goods (end time 27-Sep-07 00:24:58 BST)

although quoted as 36v 8ah, it is in fact 36v 10ah,

not sure if this will fit the Ezee, i can give you dimensions of the case, or even of the cells if this will help ?

the seller Varissara2006 is a UK importer and had several different bikes he was breaking, not just the Eco-Brand Whirlwind, see the text on his other completed auctions, might be worthwhile dropping him a line, he was most helpful with some other spares, a charger, a spare controller, a spare axle and reasonable prices too.

beeps

 

[flecc]

That looks like it might be a three rows side by side cell arrangement in the cellpack, and if so it will be a bit too wide for the eZee frame. eZee have the D cells in six vertical columns of five cells each in their battery, making it a little slimmer.
.

 

[Planetcooler]

Chain wheel reduction / battery trip

Just to update this a bit - lest anyone be working their way through this thread. I have reduced the size of the chain wheel to 46T. While this means that I can probably pedal up stepper inclines - I have to report that it made no difference to the battery tripping. Guess I should have twigged this earlier.

I would value input from anyone who knows lots or little about the Torq controller. It seems to me that the battery trip device is a thermal cutout of some description - because it seems to be dependent on the amount of time that I have the red light on. I can be over the worst bit of a hill - on a lower gradient - and trip. I would be interested to know how the speed limiter works - I imagine it is a current limiting device. When I tried by-passing it some time ago - the hill trips occurred much more quickly - suggesting the bike is trying to draw more juice even faster on hills = hence causing the cut out to trip. I was wondering if I were to reduce the current limit further - then I might be able to avoid the trips. But what is the current limiter ?

I haven't seen a reply to an earlier question - asking how the controller knows the difference between a Li battery and a NmH battery - and why I won't get the same trips if I switch battery types. It will be pretty expensive to switch batteries and charger - to discover that I still have the same problem. As I said before, I am only trying to overcome the tripping - not bothered about top speed or extended battery range. Only doing 2 * 8 miles a day.

Thanks - planetcooler

 

[flecc]

Sorry I didn't see your earlier queries on this. The answer is the same in both cases, the cutout is on voltage drop, operating at about 32 volts. As Lithium cathodes tire under load, the output and voltage gradually drop, and as you found, gearing down doesn't help. Since it reduces the speed, it moves the motor into even higher current drain so can actually make matters worse.

NiMh don't have the same rate of increase in resistance to current issue, so don't drop to 32 volts until the battery is empty. Therefore the bike doesn't know or need to know what battery is in, it just responds to what voltage is available.

The controller has a nominal operating band of 33 to 44 volts. In an overvolt situation, the controller cuts out and gives an LED 7 flash indication.
.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Weight/Age/Fitness effect on e-bikes

nobody ever seems to mention weight,a persons weight can make a huge difference to range and climbing ability,for example somebody weighing 11 stone would put far less strain on battery and motor, than someone weighing 17 stone,and would obviously not have trouble with cutting out on hills.people like to mention ranges achieved on their bikes,this means nothing if you do not mention your weight.

One must add to the Title - 'inclination to pedal' and 'geographical location'.
I suggested some months ago that the publication of "statistics", such as "Steep", "Hilly", "pretty flat" "Fast", "Slow" are meaningless feedback if not accompanied by the rider's physical profile.
There was a 'flurry' of response, all published in the responders message, to be hidden away subsequently in the mass of postings that followed on all subjects.
My intention was to admonish members to put these PERSONAL statistics into their 'Profile' (the one that comes up if one clicks the member's user name).
It is something that is or can be a sensitive issue: we imagine from the user's name and the manner in which they report how they appear to a reader, only to find it rudely dispelled when one discovers they are 5ft 2 ins, 22 stone and 88 years old. (.......would some power the giftie gi' us....)
BUT truth will help: one is not surprised then, that such a profile would find a hill of 12% on a Torq rather difficult (even for walking up)
It might prove more realistic to expect profile publication if each of the 'attributes' were given a letter or number to be applied to a known range thereby affording sufficient detail to make a near-enough correct judgement without disclosing all.
If you want a detailed view of who is making this ridiculous suggestion........look at my profile!
P.

PS I also am often thwarted by the absence of a members' location. One reads of a member's posted difficulties. "Why is he having that much trouble?" one asks oneself. It transpires, after many responses and counter-responses, that the member lives in the Rocky Mountains in Canada.

 

[Planetcooler]

Replies to flecc and ITSPETEINIT

Fflecc - many thanks for your response - much appreciated. It all becomes clear. Will have a look in the piggy bank and think about changing battery technology. Might get a bit more use out of this one first - by recharging before the journey home!

ITSPETEINIT - I did reply a while back - but just for future reference:

I'm pretty inclined to pedal - used to do this on a push bike - but I am in my mid 50's - not my mid-twenties. Weigh about 13.5 stone - about a stone more than I'd like to be - hence the bike. Live in hilly, rural terrain in a village outside Falmouth, Cornwall (UK). Possibly carry too much work and laptop in my saddle bags !!