Change in e-bike legislation

[lessped]

Its the same old story somebody making a decision about something they nothing about i'm thinkin e-bike's will be taxed it's all about rippin folks off sorry if sound a little despondant but i feel thats the way it is so i say to hell with em ride what you feel is correct i.e follow your heart .........one government is the same as the next

 

[flecc]

.........one government is the same as the next

Except when they are worse! Depressingly they never seem to be better.

Perhaps the saddest thing of all about this legislation change is the failure of the Civil Service to fully obey the mandatory EU order in 2003.

Back then e-bikes were nowhere near as common as now, so the change to pedelec only then would have been accepted with much less fuss. The large growth in UK e-biking since then would have been into a pedelec world so most would know no different, much the same as the situation in mainland Europe where they seem content with not having throttles.

The dust will settle though, and five years or so after the change little will be heard of a need for throttles. This is particularly since much e-biking is transitory, people adopting an e-bike for two or three years and then abandoning e-biking for one reason or another, like change of job or house move etc. Many of those requiring throttles now won't even be riding e-bikes in a few years time and new adopters will mostly never have known of any throttle use benefits.
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[Alex728]

In my region lot of the younger people I interact with are becoming interested in e-bikes (particularly at the < £1000 price point) but actually want something "slower" than a scooter or moped for safety, plus they don't want to lose the health/exercise benefits of an e-bike and would tolerate not having a throttle.

TBH if my Wisper went into 100% pedelec power rather than 80% I'd probably not use the throttle half as much, I rarely used it on the Powacycle Salisbury..

 

[tonio]

A 250w 15mph +-10% throttle assist, independent throttle, pedelec ebike is about 'cool' and practical enough to be a success if given the deserved approval and backing, at these specs the e-bike still needs pedal input on most hills and in practice riders pedal on most if not all journeys.
If the result of these proposals is anything less than this then the e-bike will never become popular as a viable and widely adopted car alternative.
Just a very expensive quirk. Manufacturers take note.
{IMHO}

 

[Straylight]

I agree, and my reading of the proposed legislation change makes me believe that in practical terms the only deviation from what you say is that a throttle would only be able to work whilst pedalling, unless you're travelling below 6km/h. Perhaps a different type of ebike could be produced, or an exemption granted, for those who are registered disabled to allow for throttle only operation? Personally I don't see how the rest of us have any excuse not to pedal - it's a bicycle, not an electric scooter after all .

 

[flecc]

A 250w 15mph +-10% throttle assist, independent throttle, pedelec ebike is about 'cool' and practical enough to be a success if given the deserved approval and backing, at these specs the e-bike still needs pedal input on most hills and in practice riders pedal on most if not all journeys.
If the result of these proposals is anything less than this then the e-bike will never become popular as a viable and widely adopted car alternative.
Just a very expensive quirk. Manufacturers take note.
{IMHO}

But the reality is different. In the Netherlands where they don't have throttles at all under EU law, sales of e-bikes are nearly 20 times ours, in a country well under half our population. The position in Germany is similar.

I don't think the existence of throttles has any effect on whether e-bikes are popular, they don't sell so well here simply because Britain is no longer the cycling nation it once was sixty years and more ago.
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[Straylight]

You never know though, in the present and future times of austerity, there's a hope that people may realise that their bodies are capable of more than fornication and consumption......sorry, I said that out loud didn't I?

 

[lemmy]

Except when they are worse! Depressingly they never seem to be better.
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I can't agree. This one is better than the previous one because it has at least kept one of its promises.

In 1997 Tony Blair promised that 'things can only get better'. That is even more true in 2010 than it was then

 

[tonio]

But the reality is different. In the Netherlands where they don't have throttles at all under EU law, sales of e-bikes are nearly 20 times ours, in a country well under half our population. The position in Germany is similar.


They dont have mountains or decent hills either.
I didnt vote for EU dictat, neither did anyone else in the U.K

The ebike is the best practical, green, alternative personal transport, with the right encouragement it could get thousands of cars off the road.

 

[Straylight]

I didn't vote for EU dictat, neither did anyone else in the U.K

So how far would you like to see transport policy devolved? To local councils, so that it could be tailored to an individual area? After all, no two counties in the U.K. are the same. The downside being that an individual would have to research the particular rules of other places when they wanted to cross borders. As many people with ebikes like to take them on holidays, it makes sense for there to be standardised legislation across Europe at least. It also helps the manufacturers, who then have only one set of rules to contend with, reducing manufacturing overheads, and so the cost to the consumer.

In any case, as I've said repeatedly (and with the exception of Flecc - been repeatedly ignored), the proposed changes actually don't amount to much in terms of difference from the ambiguous situation we find ourselves in at the moment, other than to provide greater clarity.

Also, as Bruce pointed out, this is a consultation document, so you have the chance to excercise your democratic rights, and voice your opinion to the powers that be.

 

[Alex728]

In any case, as I've said repeatedly (and with the exception of Flecc - been repeatedly ignored), the proposed changes actually don't amount to much in terms of difference from the ambiguous situation we find ourselves in at the moment.

much the same as the electric system. ISTR you saying you worked on stage lighting, and I bet some installations still use 15A round pin plugs and sockets when the new "Euro-standard" is to use expensive CEEForm/commando connectors as used on gensets, outdoors and temporary power feeds.

I also to try check news in a variety of European languages as well as English, and lots of EU nations don't agree 100% with everything the EU does. It of course has its bad points but the whole idea of it is compromise, as a worst-case scenario we could of course instead go back to the way European nations settled differences years ago which involved planes and ships and soldiers

TBH I'd rather have this wooly EU rule (which gives a lot of leeway if you use your brain ) than what has happened elsewhere in the Commonwealth where they've initially adopted a much more "lax" approach, subsequently people have been involved in injury collisions with illegal modified e-bikes and the rules have been made even more stringent and enforced with a 180W/200W limit and even all the way to having motor-style registration regimes!

At the moment it looks like all this will lead to is a law that traffic cops might half-heartedly enforce and only then when/if people are riding like an idiot and collisions actually occur. push the envelope and buck the system too much and we could end up with a worse situation of our tax money being used to equip a entire division of VOSA and train traffic cops just to check up on e-bikes!

 

[Straylight]

I bet some installations still use 15A round pin plugs and sockets when the new "Euro-standard" is to use expensive CEEForm/commando connectors as used on gensets, outdoors and temporary power feeds.

You may very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment....

 

[flecc]

And things have been worse at times in the past.

How many realise that a part of Britain, the Channel Islands, had registration and number plates for ordinary bicycles years ago?

Transport law harmonisation in the EU makes perfect sense, it's an area without secure borders and all vehicles by their nature can cross between countries. It's national laws that make no sense at all in such circumstances.
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[eTim]

Those photos don't show any detail, how does work?

I believe earlier Cytronex bikes had micro switches in the lever, but I'm sure they changed the system for the 2009 model bikes...

The rear brake cable runs the length of the top tube (on my 2 bikes it does anyway), close to where the cable meets the seatpost there is a internal magnetic contact switch and a small external magnet attached to the brake cable. When the brake is off the external magnet rests against the outside of the contact switch with the internal magnet allowing the motor to power on, when the brake lever is pulled the magnet attached to the cable moves away from the switch allowing the internal magnet to move to a position to break the circuit and cuts the motor power, the movement of magnets is small but enough to break contact.

So the Cytronex's have two motor controls, one for pedelec that powers the motor when pedalling and stops motor when stopped pedalling and one on the brake lever to cut power completely to the system which will not start when pedalling (on/off switch needs to be pressed).

I like this system because if using correct brake technique on a cycle, then it will mainly be front brake usage only (someone is bound to say different) and rear brake when extra braking is required for stopping or stability. Naturally you stop pedalling when braking, so front brake and stop pedalling = engine stops, start pedalling engine starts. Use rear brake also or instead of = engine cut completely, engine will not start on pedalling and needs to be turned on by on/off button.

Best of both worlds and the cut out could be changed between levers if desired.

 

[tonio]

So how far would you like to see transport policy devolved?

Regional variations are a fact of life IMHO.

as a worst-case scenario we could of course instead go back to the way European nations settled differences years ago which involved planes and ships and soldiers

The last time that happened was to get rid of a dictator. Good job too.

Isuppose ill exercise my democratic rights and use the response form.

Happy ebiking chaps.

 

[Stumpi]

Those photos don't show any detail, how does work?

Apoligies for the quality of the pic but

When the brake is applied the magnet moves away from the fixed sensor and power is cut to the motor

 

[Alex728]

You may very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment....

As far as I'm aware there's nothing wrong or illegal in continuing to use BS546 in either existing or new installations, although I've seen more recent lighting kit such as that used in the TV industry or that used for electronic dance music events with the European standard connectors. I've not been involved in "theatre" style lighting since high school / sixth form days in 1989/1990s though.

anyway what I'm saying is that in this case and with mains electric kit as a whole either the DTI or whatever Govt department was involved has sucessfully argued the case for a derogation....

 

[Straylight]

I know just kidding. Yes, many theatres still run on 15A, but I'd say that this derogation was made on the basis of the huge cost in refitting a venue to 16A. Some like the Coliseum in London have done so, but this was part of a massive re-fit that was happening at the time. I suspect that due to the much smaller cost implication for an ebike manufacturer to comply with a fairly minor rule change that no such allowances will be made in this case.

Most hire kit is 16A, particularly the automated units, so adapters have to be ordered...

 

[rog_london]

Perhaps surprisingly, you can still buy all of those 'old' three pin plugs and sockets - I don't think 5-amp and 2-amp 2-pin are still available as it's inherently non-polarised, and AFAIK you can't get hold of the old Wylex (proprietory) three-pin plugs or sockets (one round pin, two flat on either side with one slightly offset so it was polarized). However, 2 amp, 5 amp, and 15 amp three-pin plugs and sockets are still available, though I suspect not too easily.

Why would you want them? Well, sometimes even new installations may include 5 amp or 2 amp three-pin sockets generally on lighting circuits where you might have standard or table lamps centrally switched. You probably would not want someone to plug in a 3kW fan heater on one of those ciruits inadvertently. As to the 15 amp ones, maybe not in the UK but they're still surprisingly common in commonwealth and ex-commonwealth countries. If you wanted a socket for a hefty airconditioner in a house then a 15-amp 3-pin socket would often be provided just for that purpose, as you'd need a substantial plug without a fuse due to the huge starting load.

Rog.

 

[Alex728]

BS546 is indeed regularly still used in Malaysia for air conditioners and is the standard socket in India and South Africa.

To further complicate matters, these plugs and sockets increasingly referred to as "16A" sockets out there Even in the UK it was still not uncommon to find working round pin socket installations well into the 1980s in some buildings, despite the new standards being introduced in (I think) the late 1940s..

so I think whatever happens now might take a long time to implement. And although I do not support the Tories in any way, at least if they do get in they may be unlikely to do anything that "costs public money" to enforce new laws provided there isn't a spate of e-bike collisions and a moral panic raised in the tabloids about this..

by all means contribute to the consultation (I have my suspicions about them but thats another subject) but I think the outcome here could be fairly positive - those already with throttles can keep them, those who want them can be served by a market in "vintage" e-bikes and we all get the benefit of clarification in law that 250W is OK as at the moment the law is still a bit unclear!