Conversion kits and the law

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
20,214
8,246
60
West Sx RH
What sort of tyres are you running? I'm using 40-622 Schwalbe Almotion on the rear of my main bike with a generic Bafang 250W 36V and with the larger circumference of the 40 width, compared to narrower tyres, it will just about hit 20mph derestricted (off road of course :) ). I find the wider tyre saves my backside too on our pot hole covered streets. Then the rolling resistance of the Almotion is incredible for a wide tyre. It is a bit pricey though for a tyre.
None at the moment as the frame is still but a frame, eventually 622 x 43c coloured Panaracer SK Gravel Kings.
 

Benjahmin

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2014
2,501
1,707
69
West Wales
Has anyone ever had their bike speed tested by the law? And if so, how did they do it?
On the service stand my system, in highest setting, will drive the wheel at 19mph. (Measured by Cateye computer - have I set the wheel size correctly?) On the road, with no input from me, it'll reach 17-18 on the flat. Any following wind - don't know? Slight incline on the road, none that I could see, but.........? My pre 2014 kit doesn'r cut off at 16mph, it just goes to magnetic saturation, so limiting the speed. So technically illegal I guess.
Been riding it for around 9k miles now and the only copper who's come near it was a local pcso on his mountain bike. His interest was that he was trying to get an e bike out of his seargent - haven't seen him on one.
Maybe I'm just lucky to live in a rural area where a police car going through the village is a talking point. Perhaps in areas of higher density policing the interpretation of the letter of the law matters more.
 

WheezyRider

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 20, 2020
1,690
938
Has anyone ever had their bike speed tested by the law? And if so, how did they do it?
On the service stand my system, in highest setting, will drive the wheel at 19mph. (Measured by Cateye computer - have I set the wheel size correctly?) On the road, with no input from me, it'll reach 17-18 on the flat. Any following wind - don't know? Slight incline on the road, none that I could see, but.........? My pre 2014 kit doesn'r cut off at 16mph, it just goes to magnetic saturation, so limiting the speed. So technically illegal I guess.
Been riding it for around 9k miles now and the only copper who's come near it was a local pcso on his mountain bike. His interest was that he was trying to get an e bike out of his seargent - haven't seen him on one.
Maybe I'm just lucky to live in a rural area where a police car going through the village is a talking point. Perhaps in areas of higher density policing the interpretation of the letter of the law matters more.
Unless you are involved in an accident, or your bike looks abnormally powerful, I think it's highly unlikely the police would bother speed testing an e-bike. They've got too much else to worry about.
 
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WheezyRider

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 20, 2020
1,690
938
Unless you are involved in an accident, or your bike looks abnormally powerful, I think it's highly unlikely the police would bother speed testing an e-bike. They've got too much else to worry about.
That said, it is not very comforting to think you could be in trouble if you did have an accident. Even if it's not your fault, cyclists are often the target of victim blaming. "Oh, it's his fault the lorry ran him over, his bike was not compliant to the 15.5 mph rule..." Or if some numpty looking at their phone steps out into the road right in front of you without looking up from their device...it happens to me all the time.

That is why I started this thread. The fact is, the law needs updating to reflect real life so we don't have to feel like criminals when we are the ones doing our bit to save the NHS and the environment.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,872
30,417
That is why I started this thread. The fact is, the law needs updating to reflect real life so we don't have to feel like criminals when we are the ones doing our bit to save the NHS and the environment.
Spitting into the wind, as I so regularly post in here, it is never ever going to happen for a myriad of reasons. Chief among those are the following:

The present law is nearly a world standard outside of the USA and to a limited degree Canada where they are federated countries with State laws which are often worse than ours anyway.

Politicians and civil servants hate risks so prefer to stick with what most do for safety.

Most of the world cycles far slower than we in the UK do. From the Netherlands to Africa, India, China and Japan, cyclists amble along as low as half our UK common speeds, so to them a 15 mph assist is plenty. Belting around at 20 mph or more, grim faced, helmeted and often low over drop bars as if competing in the Tour de France is a peculiarly British cycling obsession. Almost everywhere else, cycling is just transport.

Speed limits in the UK have long been on a downward trajectory and changes are generally reductions. At one time in my earlier life we only had a 30 mph limit in built up areas and any speed you like almost everywhere else. Now look at it, 60 mph national limit with 70 only on some dual carriageways. Vast areas of the country limited to 40 mph. Whole boroughs with a 20mph limit, speed bumps everywhere.

And it's paid off, we have the lowest accident and death rates in the world by a huge margin. Thats why any talk of raising any speed limit is frowned upon, even with bikes, as the refusal to accept the S class high speed pedelecs shows.

Finally the L1e-A class of powered bicycle with pedals is limited to the same 15.5 mph assist and subject to registration with number plate and insurance. Everything faster is treated the same way and has to have a driving licence with CBT. So there is no way our bureauracy free pedelecs will be allowed more assist speed.
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WheezyRider

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 20, 2020
1,690
938
Spitting into the wind, as I so regularly post in here, it is never ever going to happen for a myriad of reasons. Chief among those are the following:

The present law is nearly a world standard outside of the USA and to a limited degree Canada where they are federated countries with State laws which are often worse than ours anyway.

Politicians and civil servants hate risks so prefer to stick with what most do for safety.

Most of the world cycles far slower than we in the UK do. From the Netherlands to Africa, India, China and Japan, cyclists amble along as low as half our UK common speeds, so to them a 15 mph assist is plenty. Belting around at 20 mph or more, grim faced, helmeted and often low over drop bars as if competing in the Tour de France is a peculiarly British cycling obsession. Almost everywhere else, cycling is just transport.

Speed limits in the UK have long been on a downward trajectory and changes are generally reductions. At one time in my earlier life we only had a 30 mph limit in built up areas and any speed you like almost everywhere else. Now look at it, 60 mph national limit with 70 only on some dual carriageways. Vast areas of the country limited to 40 mph. Whole boroughs with a 20mph limit, speed bumps everywhere.

And it's paid off, we have the lowest accident and death rates in the world by a huge margin. Thats why any talk of raising any speed limit is frowned upon, even with bikes, as the refusal to accept the S class high speed pedelecs shows.

Finally the L1e-A class of powered bicycle with pedals is limited to the same 15.5 mph assist and subject to registration with number plate and insurance. Everything faster is treated the same way and has to have a driving licence with CBT. So there is no way our bureauracy free pedelecs will be allowed more assist speed.
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Flecc, my point isn't so much do do with the legal max speed, it is that we want to comply with the law, but the vast, vast majority of the equipment out there (including complete bikes, not just kits) is non compliant, so it's almost impossible to be within the law as it stands.

That said, 15.5 mph as a max speed is, IMO dangerous. It puts you in what I call "The cycle death zone".

This comes from decades of experience. The problem is our car centred society and cyclists having to compete with cars and so you have to dice with death every metre of your journey. Below about 13 mph and to cars you are just a quicker than normal pedestrian and they can zoom past easily and not feel hindered.

Over 20 mph and you are part of the traffic flow. Cars have more of a tendency to treat you as part of the traffic and not feel overly inconvenienced.

However from 13 to 20 mph, it is difficult for cars to get past you without exceeding the speed limit, but your speed is not fast enough for them to feel comfortable sitting behind you. It pushes motorists into dangerous overtaking manoeuvres.

Average cycling speeds in other countries tend to be lower than 15.5 mph, but there are reasons for that. In Japan they cycle almost exclusively on the pavement and share the space with pedestrians. In the Netherlands we look with amazement at how thousands of people can be carried across a traffic junction in minutes as they ride their bikes. We marvel at the efficiency and balletic performance of it all and think how awfully congested their streets would be if all those people were in cars. However, to the locals, it is awful. They want to get where they are going and not have all these people in the way so they can cycle at a decent speed :) On the dedicated cycle tracks outside of town speeds are far higher.

I'm not convinced that average speeds in this country are significantly higher than anywhere else, if they are, it's because we have a system where we need to compete with cars. However speeds > 15.5 mph are not only the reserve of high performance athletes riding high performance bikes and wearing Lycra. A modern bicycle on the flat will roll along at more than 15.5 mph with minimal effort. Most average people who cycle regularly on a modern unassisted bike will average between 16 and 18 mph on the flat and hit 20+ mph at times. Fit riders will do even more. The speed riders you mention will be travelling at 25 to 30 mph, not 20 :)

At the end of the day, for the sake of our health and the environment, we need to get people commuting by bike not car. Electric bikes are a game changer in motivating people to get out of their cars. Yet, we limit them to impractically low speeds. In my mind, the limit for assistance should be 20 mph, but there shouldn't be any shared cycle lanes, only dedicated cycle infra. Also, all speed limits on urban roads should be reduced to 20 mph, so there is a level playing field and a far safer and more social use of space.

At the heart of the problem is the way that town planners look at cyclists as some form of pedestrian. However, they should never be mixed. Even at 10 mph, cyclists should not be anywhere near pedestrians.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,872
30,417
the vast, vast majority of the equipment out there (including complete bikes, not just kits) is non compliant, so it's almost impossible to be within the law as it stands.
I think this is a big exaggeration. The great majority of all manufactured pedelcs are legal as supplied. The LCD speed alterations have to be discovered and then applied by the customer, a different matter.

This comes from decades of experience. The problem is our car centred society and cyclists having to compete with cars
With just over seventy cycling years and at one time being in the trade, I can probably match your experience and don't disagree with much of what you've posted.

I'm not convinced that average speeds in this country are significantly higher than anywhere else
They certainly are, very much higher. The great majority of the recent expansion of cycling has been in commuting, where the speeds are commonly around 20 mph where possible. And we don't have anything remotely like the level of slow utility cycling that most of the mentioned countries have.

I'm well aware of the cycling laws and conditions throughout the world and the reasons for them, but that cuts no ice here. Neither do any of the entirely logical arguments. The last of the reasons posted above why the law will not change alone bars any possible increase in assist speed.

No matter how many bang their heads against this wall, and you are just the last of a long line of them in here during three decades, it will not happen because it cannot. It cannot because there is no room for it to increase without inheriting registration and insurance, compulsory m/c grade helmets and even a driving licence and CBT with 15.5 mph assist limit in some circumstances.
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