Cyclamatic controller

[Fordulike]

For anyone who is interested, i opened up my Cyclamatic controller box today and spied a manufacturers stamp on the circuit board:

Nanjing Lishui Electronics Research Institute Co.,Ltd. www.lsdzs.com

Absolutely no chance of fitting anything bigger inside the controller housing though, it's as tight as a nun's chuff
Also, no potentiometers to tweak either, double

 

[onmebike]

For a minute there I thought you were going to say something else?
Was there a model number?
I dare say the lack of potentiometers is a minor issue, fixed value components are easily bypassed, although I doubt the gains would be worthwhile on a 24v system.
The nun's chuff comment gave me a smile though, thanks.

 

[Fordulike]

The controller casing has a label printed with:
24v system
Max 14A
Rate 7A
Low Voltage 21v
Throttle adjust 1.2v - 4.4v
Serial number: WS X09050019870

The circuit board shows:
PS70A

Reckon the Nanjing Lishui LSW70A Micro Controller is just an updated version.
They do them in 24, 36 and 48v versions.
Forgot to measure the controller size, but if they're the same then it could be replaced inside the bike controller housing.
Reckon this 36v battery might fit in the rack and it looks like it has the same battery output connector on the bottom:

New 36V10AH Lithium Battery for electric Bike/Bicycles on eBay (end time 01-Aug-10 09:12:56 BST)

I've heard that motors are ok to overvolt.
The throttle lights would need to be disconnected, but they're pants anyway.
The rest of the Cyclamatic components seem sturdy enough and i've certainly given mine a rough time along the dirt tracks.
Now it just needs someone to give this conversion a go

 

[Fordulike]

I'm so tempted to just buy one of these 36v batteries and try it out without changing the controller.
What's the worst that could happen, controller meltdown?
Guess it will just end in tears though

 

[onmebike]

I'm so tempted to just buy one of these 36v batteries and try it out without changing the controller.
What's the worst that could happen, controller meltdown?
Guess it will just end in tears though

If controller has overvoltage protection it probably won't run, also low battery cutoff with existing controller, at 21volts is way too low for a 36volt pack.
How many wires go to motor?

 

[Fordulike]

I only had a quick check of wiring as it is a bit of a bird's nest.
Looks like red/black/yellow/green/blue wires from motor.
As for the low voltage cutoff, wouldn't the BMS in the battery take care of that?

 

[onmebike]

I only had a quick check of wiring as it is a bit of a bird's nest.
Looks like red/black/yellow/green/blue wires from motor.
As for the low voltage cutoff, wouldn't the BMS in the battery take care of that?

The low voltage cutoff is most likely in the controller not BMS and appears from the controller label info you've given to be 21volt.
Although they all differ, a BMS generally manages the charging side of things such as cell balancing and overvoltage.
From the amount of wires, the motor appears to have sensors, although I would have expected more than five.
Most motors brushed/brushless will handle a broad range of voltages but without specs this is unknown.
I've emailed the controller manufacturer and requested a circuit diagram, hopefully they will respond.
Not quite sure if the gains of converting to 36v would be worthwhile.
Battery's are more expensive, speed restrictions much the same if within legal limits, Torque will no doubt be improved but by how much? You'll also need new controller and be taking a chance with existing motor.
Replacement battery for Cyclamatic currently £170 post free with this weekends discount. Must be ordered by phone as not shown on website.[Quote JULY15 for discount}

 

[NRG]

I'm so tempted to just buy one of these 36v batteries and try it out without changing the controller.
What's the worst that could happen, controller meltdown?
Guess it will just end in tears though

Low voltage cutout may be an issue as mentioned but the BMS may incorporate it you would need to check. Overvolting the motor will give you more speed and power, the 24v controller will be limited by the power mosfets used and the capacitors, the capacitors will be marked with their voltage rating you will need 50v as a minimum. The mosfets will have an absolute max voltage rating so you would need to get the reference number stamped on them to check.

I suspect that the 24v controller will take 36v (i have one that does) but the low voltage cut off is your biggest problem IMHO.

 

[Fordulike]

Whilst i make no claims to being an electronics whizzkid and you are absolutely right on stating whether it would be worth it, one thing still makes me wonder about how universal these controllers are. Let me explain.

Some of the specs are are follows:

* Rated voltage: DC 24V/36V/48V
* Rated Power: 150~250W
* Low Voltage Protection: DC 21V±0.5V / DC31.5V±0.5V / DC42V±0.5V
* Current Limit: 7~14A(±0.5A)
* Standby Power Consumption: < 3W
* Speed Limit: Highest Speed range 35km/h ～ 45km/h (specified by motor). Speed limit under 20km/h

Now i wouldn't have thought it would be cost effective to design and manufacture radically different circuit boards for 24v, 36v and 48v.
After peeking inside the controller on my current bike, it has 6 MOSFETS and would be pushed to contain anthing extra or bigger (excuse my stab at sounding knowledgeable and feel free to shoot me down in flames)
Therefore, my theory is that whichever voltage model you buy, the only difference is tweaking of the cutoff voltage.
This would mean that if the battery BMS handles cutoff voltage, then this wouldn't be a problem.
I have emailed the company to ask if the 24v controller can handle bigger voltages.
Ready..... Aim..... Fire.....

 

[NRG]

Yep, that's about the sum of it, as you've had it apart what where the capacitor ratings and mosfet types?

 

[Fordulike]

Yep, that's about the sum of it, as you've had it apart what where the capacitor ratings and mosfet types?

I'm going to have another look, will post back here with info

 

[Fordulike]

Phew, it's tight in there

The circuit board has 6 capacitors:
1 x large, 1000uF 50v
4 x medium, couldn't see values
1 x small, again couldn't see value

6 x MOSFET's F1010E
733P
8L U6
all heatsinked

Might be these: 5 x F1010E MOSFET N-Channel 84A 60V Transistor IRF1010E on eBay (end time 17-Aug-10 05:40:45 BST)

1 x looks like a MOSFET, not heatsinked, separate from others, couldn't see info.

Motor wiring:
3 x thick wires yellow/green/blue
5 x thin wires black/blue/green/yellow/red

That's it folks, can't get any more info as i don't want to bend the components too far to read the printing.

 

[NRG]

The large cap is the reservoir cap wired right across the battery input so 36v no problem.

The other caps near the mosfets will be the phase caps and one for the regulator (that stand alone one) that feeds the controller cct, these should also be 50v. The IRF1010E are the same ones I have in my old 24v controller so the 60v spec is the maximum voltage they will take....36v again no problem.

I think its good to go if you can sort out the LVC problem.

 

[onmebike]

Whilst i make no claims to being an electronics whizzkid and you are absolutely right on stating whether it would be worth it, one thing still makes me wonder about how universal these controllers are. Let me explain.

Some of the specs are are follows:

* Rated voltage: DC 24V/36V/48V
* Rated Power: 150~250W
* Low Voltage Protection: DC 21V±0.5V / DC31.5V±0.5V / DC42V±0.5V
* Current Limit: 7~14A(±0.5A)
* Standby Power Consumption: < 3W
* Speed Limit: Highest Speed range 35km/h ～ 45km/h (specified by motor). Speed limit under 20km/h

Now i wouldn't have thought it would be cost effective to design and manufacture radically different circuit boards for 24v, 36v and 48v.
After peeking inside the controller on my current bike, it has 6 MOSFETS and would be pushed to contain anthing extra or bigger (excuse my stab at sounding knowledgeable and feel free to shoot me down in flames)
Therefore, my theory is that whichever voltage model you buy, the only difference is tweaking of the cutoff voltage.
This would mean that if the battery BMS handles cutoff voltage, then this wouldn't be a problem.
I have emailed the company to ask if the 24v controller can handle bigger voltages.
Ready..... Aim..... Fire.....

On the makers website at the bottom of each controllers specification it states the following, "All of above functionalities are software based"
I can only assume from this that although the controllers are pretty universal within the quoted limits, they are individually programmed for their purpose, this is pretty normal with R/c controllers where the user can reprogam for their needs, e.g. cell count, cell type, brake on/off, reverse on/off etc.
In this instance user programming doesn't appear an option.

 

[Fordulike]

Although the one in the Cyclamatic appears to be very similar to the websites new controller, it looks to be a slightly older version, so maybe you're correct about the programming options or reduced capability.
I was planning on a complete bike build ready for next summer and will need a battery for that project.
Don't Ping battery BMS's have a low voltage protection?

 

[timidtom]

Baffled?

Am I the only member of this forum who hasn't understood a single sentence - nay, a single word - of this thread?
Tom

 

[Fordulike]

Me neither

 

[Fordulike]

Only kiddin

 

[onmebike]

Although the one in the Cyclamatic appears to be very similar to the websites new controller, it looks to be a slightly older version, so maybe you're correct about the programming options or reduced capability.
I was planning on a complete bike build ready for next summer and will need a battery for that project.
Don't Ping battery BMS's have a low voltage protection?

I'm adding some info from the manufacturers knowledge base below.
You may be correct that the older controllers aren't programmable, one way to find out is look at the circuit of the controller, if programmable there will be an IC which appears as a long black chip with many leg's, this will probably be an mcu.


Nanjing Lishui Electronics Research Institute Co., Ltd. www.lsdzs.com

Nanjing Lishui Electronics Research Institute Co., Ltd. www.lsdzs.com

Nanjing Lishui Electronics Research Institute Co., Ltd. www.lsdzs.com

Nanjing Lishui Electronics Research Institute Co., Ltd. www.lsdzs.com

Nanjing Lishui Electronics Research Institute Co., Ltd. www.lsdzs.com

Nanjing Lishui Electronics Research Institute Co., Ltd. www.lsdzs.com

Nanjing Lishui Electronics Research Institute Co., Ltd. www.lsdzs.com

Nanjing Lishui Electronics Research Institute Co., Ltd. www.lsdzs.com

 

[Fordulike]

Cheers onmebike for the info. I know the Cyclamatic isn't the most exciting of bikes to consider upgrading, but hey that's what this website is all about.
Garden shed tinkerers unite
As for the IC, there is one on the board, so maybe not such an antique after all.
I'd be surprised if the eBay 36v battery doesn't have some kind of a BMS with low voltage cutoff inside the aluminium casing.
All the aluminium cased ones i've checked with specs so far, indicate a lower cutoff voltage.