Cytronex vs Wisper DaaHub motor

[greyhound_dog_1]

Hi all

Some background. I am looking for a hub drive bike that handles well and turns sharply, and looks good.

Tried panasonic e-motion pedelecs - but I was unable to utilise maximum rider power at the same time as maximum motor torque to climb a steep hill (annoying cadence based phase down).

Tried hub bikes, only found two I liked. Wisper 905SE, which I found to be a very good hill climber, reasonably agile (ish) for it's weight, okayish looking, but wasn't too keen on having to use the throttle all the time as it didn't encourage the cyclist to do any work. Looking at that bike again, I see that it has a pedal sense mode now as well as throttle (maybe it did then too and I forgot). 7/10 for that one.

I also tried a Cytronex Cannondale Quick 8 last year, which I was very impressed with (and liked the Nexus hub). Looked great, especially with the water bottle battery, very stealthy. It handled superbly, with the motor not affecting the turn in at all. Yes range is lower but my commute is only 4 miles each way so I don't need a fat battery.

In particular, the Cytronex speed control method worked very well for me, i.e. the 'press button to select low or high(er) speed and then it gives power up to that speed only when you pedal' method.

I gave it 9/10 and was nearly settled on a Cytronex Quick 8 but it is discontinued, there are other models but I will wait until this long awaited kit comes out - very soon apparently.

My only concern over Cytronex motor was motor reliability.
My journey is: 20 minutes smooth track, 10 minutes smooth road and 5 minutes torn up cycle track.

Mark@Cytronex wasn't sure the bike would be appropriate for me, due to the delictate motor being damaged. I've read about turning the power off on rough bits. So if I turn off the power on the rough bit, the motor suffers no damage as it disconnects the bearings? Does that mean if I did that, it might last longer than a 'normal' motor that is permentantly connected?

Also Mark mentioned the possibility that there might be a choice of motors in the kit, more appropriate for rough terrain use. Don't know if that is still planned?

I have since spotted a kit from Wisper, which apart from the unsightly 'phallus-like' battery placement (yes I have been following the threads ) appears to get some good reviews. Unfortunately I cannot try one, though I guess the motor will be similar or better than the Wisper bike I tried?

Could someone explain the speed/power controller on the DaaHub kit...it is same as or similar to Cytronex i.e. works to maintain a set speed, providing you are turning the crank? Is it the same as the standard Wisper bike?

I'd better sumamrise that.
- Cytronex motor, can it cope with a few minutes of rough terrain per day, and will turning it off on the rough bits prevent damage completely?
- Any news on the Cytronex kit and if it will have other motor options, if the standard one isn't appropriate?
- or would the DaaHub motor be a better bet?
- What is the speed/power control principle of the DaaHub?

If anyone has any preferences for either system, justified or not, it would be interesting to hear them. I am intending to try both of these systems again in the coming months. Thanks!

 

[Mussels]

The beauty of the cytronex kit is the motor, if they substitute a different one then it sort of loses it's USP. Also I keep hearing that a Cytronex kit is due but I haven't heard of one actually being sold.
The Daahub motor is better than the one on the 905 (I had a 905 followed by a 906 with the Dapu motor like the kit has) but there's not a big difference really, I've noticed it climbs steep hills better and freewheels better so I can ride over the motor top speed on the flat. I can also say that the Wisper motors stand up well to poor quality roads.
You can change the gearing of the Panasonic setup to allow a higher cadence, I still think it's low though.

 

[eTim]

After having ridden my crank drive Haibike exclusively for the last 2 months, I must admit I miss my Cytronex when purely riding road. The beauty of Cytronex is it's lightweight, proper bicycle feel and handling, the assistance is really non-intrusive and it's a fast road bike, it can also be converted back to a normal bike just by swapping the motor wheel for a standard one. I've travelled along some washboard, pot holed bumpy bouncy roads and tracks on the Cytronex (Synapse), under power, with no problems, but I couldn't tell you how rough the road would need to be before the motor goes 'pop'. I think you need to treat the Cytronex bikes similar to the real world, so the more road orientated, eg SuperSix should be ridden on-road only and the smoother the road the better. The more Hybrid the terrain, then the more Hybrid the bike (fatter tyres, flatbar, more forgiving frame, comfier) and the motor therefore should take a bit more abuse, the Claud Butler or Quick bikes fit into this category, just how long and rough is your cycle track?

I love my Bosch powered Haibike too, that feels just like a mountain bike and I use it for the reason I bought it, namely mountain biking. In the mountain biking application the crank drive is most suitable, for steep off-road hills, slow riding and lower cadences. I can almost pedal at road cadences on my Haibike when riding road by lowering the assistance levels, but then you go slower and as you'd expect from a mountain bike, it will never feel like a road bike, assisted or not!

Each of my bikes and their different systems excel in their chosen application, you really have to decide the application that you will put your bike to and choose the assistance method to meet that use. I am lucky to have the choice of either bike to meet my mood.

Then you have the compromise of the crank drive road bike, compromised only in cadence?? The Kalkhoff's and their like are fast and will take the abuse of rough tracks, I tried one and couldn't really get on with it.

I have no experience of Wisper's but I suspect they will be similar to the Kalkhoff's in robustness and speed, but for me don't flick any switches, I really should try one to see!

 

[Cyclezee]

Hi Greyhound_dog_1,

A warm welcome to the forum. You will find the best advice avaliable here, both impartial an totally biased as in my instance.

You seem to have fair idea of what you are looking for.
Might I suggest if you are considering a kit that you have look at what is on offer from eZee.
The beauty of kit bikes is that you can choose a non-powered bike that you really like, then install a kit or have one fitted for you.

You can check out eZee kits via the website link below. An installation guide can emailed to you on request.

 

[greyhound_dog_1]

>>Cyclezee

You'll be pleased to know the OnBike people suggested I try one of your bikes. Ezee Torq- v.v.v good at getting up near vertical inclines due to the massive hub motor and high peak power, but very slow to turn in due to having turned the front wheel into a very heavy gyroscope.

>>eTim: just how long and rough is your cycle track?
Only 5 minutes along the rough cycle track per journey. It's basically compacted dirt with pebbles sticking out, not massively rough as such but glad I have extra fat tyres and front suspention on my cheap mountain bike.

Interesting comment about your experience of the Haibike, yes this is what I experienced on the Panasonic drive systems. I can see though that they would be ideal for proper off road/cross country low cadence cycling.

>>Mussels
Can you describe how the speed control/power settings work on the new 906 assuming it will be similar to the DaaHub kit version(?)

------

Any more experiences of Cytronex motor on occasional mildly rough terrain? Surely it must be able to cope with it a bit, as even roads are not always perfect, and I don't see people complaining about faulty motors.

Anyone with thoughts or heavily biased opinions on the Daahub kit fitted to a lightweight bike vs a Cytronex bike?

 

[HarryB]

>>Cyclezee

You'll be pleased to know the OnBike people suggested I try one of your bikes. Ezee Torq- v.v.v good at getting up near vertical inclines due to the massive hub motor and high peak power, but very slow to turn in due to having turned the front wheel into a very heavy gyroscope.

>>eTim: just how long and rough is your cycle track?
Only 5 minutes along the rough cycle track per journey. It's basically compacted dirt with pebbles sticking out, not massively rough as such but glad I have extra fat tyres and front suspention on my cheap mountain bike.

Interesting comment about your experience of the Haibike, yes this is what I experienced on the Panasonic drive systems. I can see though that they would be ideal for proper off road/cross country low cadence cycling.

>>Mussels
Can you describe how the speed control/power settings work on the new 906 assuming it will be similar to the DaaHub kit version(?)

------

Any more experiences of Cytronex motor on occasional mildly rough terrain? Surely it must be able to cope with it a bit, as even roads are not always perfect, and I don't see people complaining about faulty motors.

Anyone with thoughts or heavily biased opinions on the Daahub kit fitted to a lightweight bike vs a Cytronex bike?

Mark is right to warn you against using the tongxin motor in rough terrain. This motor is quite fragile - the roller drive is supported by a retaining ring and that can easily breaks. You will then lose drive. This can happen even over cobbled roads and you are best riding without power. The dapush is a nice powerful little motor but cannot quite match the tongxin for lack of drag.

 

[Mark/Cytronex]

Off road use

Hello Greyhound_dog_1

Thanks for your post, thought I had better clarify.

"Delicate" our motor isn't, I used the first prototype Trek to work until I changed to our new Bad Boy Headshock and it was still going strong after 7,100 miles and having been heavily abused for most of its life.

The point we do make is that we produce bikes for transport rather than mountain biking. That said, a good proportion of our customers use them for leisure but none of the bikes we currently offer have fat tyres suitable for rough terrain and if you try using power on rough terrain it would not be very comfortable therefore.

Nobody has really solved the problem of how to have the perfect bicycle off road and on. For on road speed you need narrow and preferably slick tyres and for off-road you need the opposite. Until someone invents a tyre that changes shape at the press of a button the whole industry is rather stuck on this one. If you use fat tyres on road it will knock a good few precious mphs off your speed.

We do say that if you find yourself on rough off-road you should switch the power off, that is true, but it is more comfortable to do so anyway. With hub motors there is a similar situation to tyres, if you want one for mountain biking it will be big and heavy and noisy, if you want one that is silent for efficient use on the road or decent tracks that is what we already do. True crank drive motors are well suited to off road but if you want a bike to ride like a bike whether using power or not then this is not currently the best option.

That said we are working long term on a solution that will work for both, but it is some way off.

Regards,

Mark

 

[Cyclezee]

>>Cyclezee

You'll be pleased to know the OnBike people suggested I try one of your bikes. Ezee Torq- v.v.v good at getting up near vertical inclines due to the massive hub motor and high peak power, but very slow to turn in due to having turned the front wheel into a very heavy gyroscope.

Can I just clarify a couple of points here. Currently, Cyclezee only supply eZee conversion kits and components, not complete bikes.
eZee kits are available for bikes with 20", 26" and 700c wheels, both front and rear.

The sort of routes you are riding would not be problem for an eZee equipped MTB like yours greyhound_dog_1, eZee motors are renowned for toughness and duarability.

 

[Mussels]

>>Mussels
Can you describe how the speed control/power settings work on the new 906 assuming it will be similar to the DaaHub kit version(?)

The motor is activated by throttle or pedal rotation, I usually don't use the throttle unless I want to power round a sharp corner where the pedals would hit the ground. I didn't mention this bit before as I don't know if it's the same on the Daahub kit.

 

[tangent]

Hi Greyhound_dog,

If your only concern with the Kalkhoff is the lowish cadence power down, then this can be fixed by replacing the motor drive sprocket with a larger one. As standard they come with 9T sprockets but 11T, 12T and I think larger ones are available. A 12T sprocket will move the cadence taper start point up by 33% compared with the 9T. This does reduce the perceived assistance level, but now 1:2 assistance levels are available I doubt you will consider this a problem.

I would be interested to know whether there were similar fixes for the Bosch bikes.

 

[jerrysimon]

So Mark is Cytronex planning to launch this kit soon ?

A lot of people on the forum keep asking about it.

Regards

Jerry

 

[Kudoscycles]

Have you looked at our Kudos King or King Carbon bikes,not sure your location but both can be tried at our warehouse(Whitstable,Kent),on our open day-August 13 or Atmosphere bikes have a sample at Bristol.
Dave
Kudos Cycles

 

[eddieo]

we are currently down in Croatia with the 2 new bikes on a very dodgy campsite wifi connection........everywhere we go we get so much interest in the specialised/daahub bike, not one has commented negatively on the battery? all comments have been full of admiration, with one group of Italians convinced it must be from Ferrari! I am used to a bit of interest but nothing like this. the phallus observations seems to be from a handful of dirty minds on here who are entirely missing the point of such a fine kit...... but it needs and deserves a really good quality donor bike to make the most of the combination

simply the nicest e Bike ever in my opinion, stealthy and powerful, and handles so much better then any e bike I have tried. if you liked the 905 this is in a different league! light years ahead.....

 

[kitchenman]

Nice one Eddie. Have a great time.

 

[greyhound_dog_1]

we are currently down in Croatia with the 2 new bikes on a very dodgy campsite wifi connection........everywhere we go we get so much interest in the specialised/daahub bike, not one has commented negatively on the battery? all comments have been full of admiration, with one group of Italians convinced it must be from Ferrari! I am used to a bit of interest but nothing like this. the phallus observations seems to be from a handful of dirty minds on here who are entirely missing the point of such a fine kit...... but it needs and deserves a really good quality donor bike to make the most of the combination

simply the nicest e Bike ever in my opinion, stealthy and powerful, and handles so much better then any e bike I have tried. if you liked the 905 this is in a different league! light years ahead.....

I liked the lightness, handling, stealth and silent ride of the Cytronex conversions. I'd imagine that an newer dapush motor on something 2/3 of the weight of a standard Wisper and with a normal bike frame would take off like the proverbial poop off a shovel and handle well, ergo why I am trying to find out more about them. Just wish the battery placement was better (e.g. on the downtube or as a waterbottle) but that's just my opinion. Perhaps it can be set up this way.

Perhaps if bike shops sell the Daahub conversion kit Wisper should ask them to build a sporty demo bike similar to what you have constructed as an example to encourage sales. Please do keep us all informed on how it goes as the months go by. Yes your bike seems to generate lots of opinions, you'll have a cult following soon.

 

[piotrmacheta]

Surely it must be easy enough to mount the battery using the bottle cage fixing holes - it doesn't even need to look like a water bottle.
The other good idea is to mount the battery inside the seat tube (long cyclinder battery) but this may be a bit harder to engineer.

 

[Tex]

Good on you Eddie. Wisper: when are these things coming the Oz?

 

[funkylyn]

the phallus observations seems to be from a handful of dirty minds on here who are entirely missing the point of such a fine kit...... but it needs and deserves a really good quality donor bike to make the most of the combination

simply the nicest e Bike ever in my opinion, stealthy and powerful, and handles so much better then any e bike I have tried. if you liked the 905 this is in a different league! light years ahead.....

Hmmm.... personally speaking Eddieo, my mind is extremely clean.....I am well aware of the quality of the DaaHub kit and have not missed the point of it..........wouldnt expect anything other than quality kit from David.........but that doesnt alter the fact that mounted where you have mounted it......it looks like a phallus.....end of.....
Glad you are still in love with it......

Lynda

 

[Oiseaux]

Hmmm.... personally speaking Eddieo, my mind is extremely clean.....I am well aware of the quality of the DaaHub kit and have not missed the point of it..........wouldnt expect anything other than quality kit from David.........but that doesnt alter the fact that mounted where you have mounted it......it looks like a phallus.....end of.....

Nice one Lynda !!

 

[Caph]

With hub motors there is a similar situation to tyres, if you want one for mountain biking it will be big and heavy and noisy

Or just get the latest 8FUN QSWXK motor. Ideal for mountain biking (up to a gradient limit as for all hub motors), low drag, not too heavy, and pretty darned quiet. Motors have come on quite a bit recently and are no longer big, heavy and noisy, but it was nice of you to try and and eliminate all competition in one sweeping statement to try and get him to buy your motor, you really are a credit to this forum and all it stands for.

Greyhound, have you considered the Sunlova/Alien kit? It's definitely worth a look.