DFT consultation on increase of 250W limit to 500W

sjpt

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Jun 8, 2018
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I'm not quite sure what this diagram had to do with the discussion, but it seems that putting Curation after Dissemination is rather shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Though now I think on it, maybe it's (generally undesirable) Information Censorship that would need to come before dissemination to be effective. The Curation just provides a useful guide to find the appropriate information from the case amount of disseminated rubbish.
 

Az.

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 27, 2022
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THESE are the vehicles we need to control.not piffling powered e-bikes.

Why this is not obvious to the pernickety control freaks eludes me.
Let me try to explain then.

Watch how Dumb and Dumber ride and tell me it still eludes you why they should be controlled.

 

Tony1951

Esteemed Pedelecer
Mar 27, 2016
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Let me try to explain then.

Watch how Dumb and Dumber ride and tell me it still eludes you why they should be controlled.

Don't associate me with any of that. These people broke the law within the first few seconds when they rode recklessly through a red light. I stopped the video at that point. I saw nothing there related to what I was talking about, which in case I ws not clear was about pernickety regulations on the power of assisted bikes.

We all know that some cyclists ride like imbeciles. Even so, and while NEVER supporting that, teh low speed and low mass of bicycles and ordinary ebikes means they rarely actually kill people unlike those riding in cars weighing a tonne and more or HGVs, which between them kill hundreds of pedestrians every year.
 

saneagle

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Oct 10, 2010
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Let me try to explain then.

Watch how Dumb and Dumber ride and tell me it still eludes you why they should be controlled.

For us, that seems so dangerous. One would have thought that quite soon his luck would run out and he'd stop doing that. He must therefore be more in control than it looks like, so you have to admire the skill if you ignore the lawlessness. I couldn't see if he had a front brake. His braking looked very effective with or without it, which reminds me of the case where the guy on a fixie with no front brake killed a woman. A policeman, presumably not a skilled fixie rider, tested the bike and came to the conclusion that the braking distance was too large, though I'd bet that the rider could always stop quicker than we can with out electric bikes. I wonder how long their back tyres last.
 
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Az.

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 27, 2022
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Don't associate me with any of that.
Of course I don't. I just wanted to show you why there should be accountability. What you propose is to give those idiots right to legally buy mopeds and join traffic without any control.

BTW one of those idiots is just looking for a powerful e-bike on another forum. He thinks he is to slow and needs a boost.

We all know that some cyclists ride like imbeciles. Even so, and while NEVER supporting that, teh low speed and low mass of bicycles and ordinary ebikes means they rarely actually kill people unlike those riding in cars weighing a tonne and more or HGVs, which between them kill hundreds of pedestrians every year.
They rarely give any details of accidents. Watch more than just few seconds or just scroll to 2 minutes 10 seconds. Would you blame bus driver or cyclist?
 

Az.

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 27, 2022
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For us, that seems so dangerous. One would have thought that quite soon his luck would run out and he'd stop doing that. He must therefore be more in control than it looks like. You have to admire the skill if you ignore the lawlessness. I couldn't see if he had a front brake.
Skills they have, there are no doubts about that. Both of them.
... but they put in danger themselves, pedestrians and drivers.
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
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... but they put in danger themselves, pedestrians and drivers.
You can say that every time you ride your bike or drive your car. you need a greater margin of error than him. He has immense skill and judgement, so he can use much smaller margins of error. You're applying your frame of reference to him, so to you, it looks dangerous. I feel the same when I see it, but then I apply logic. If it's as dangerous as it looks, he'd either be in jail or in hospital, but he must have done it a lot to get those sort of skills. In that case, it's probably not as dangerous as it looks - for him, not us.
 

Hoppy33

Finding my (electric) wheels
Nov 29, 2023
10
8
You can say that every time you ride your bike or drive your car. you need a greater margin of error than him. He has immense skill and judgement, so he can use much smaller margins of error. You're applying your frame of reference to him, so to you, it looks dangerous. I feel the same when I see it, but then I apply logic. If it's as dangerous as it looks, he'd either be in jail or in hospital, but he must have done it a lot to get those sort of skills. In that case, it's probably not as dangerous as it looks - for him, not us.
It's not as dangerous as it looks and as a lad I might have pulled off a few similar moves myself. But it's not representative either - they're in central London (Oxford Street) where the traffic never moves faster than a walking pace. The weather is good, but their safety also depends to a large extent on other traffic/pedestrians moving out of the way. That doesn't happen on suburban roads where the traffic is pushing 30mph (maybe 40) and there are mums with prams, school kids, dog walkers and 101 other hazards to put them, and others, in hospital.

Question: they're breaking plenty of laws there. How can they be enforced?
 

WheezyRider

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 20, 2020
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The obvious thing too... it shows that you don't need a "500 W" motor to act like a complete tw*t.

Yes, the guy has a lot of skill etc, but all it takes is for someone to jump the wrong way, or be otherwise distracted for something bad to happen.
 

guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
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I'm shocked that video has only been viewed 1,300 times over 4 months. One of my mind numbingly boring videos about nothing whatsoever has quite irrationally, been viewed 18,129 times during the same time period. Weird.


All that matters (legislation wise) is what is stamped on the motor and the speed assist limit. The amount of power the controller supplies to the motor is not controlled by any legislation - 500 Watts input power is quite low for hilly areas - I don't know if you are using a 36V or 48V system but @guerney has his parameters optimised for hill climbing
Yes, we've chatted about that before. I uploaded destructions.

"250W" is stamped clearly under Bafang BBS01B motors.


I know that you can buy a cable to adjust parameters. I have not done it.
You really should do it - it does seem folks who find hill ascension difficult, have bought the wrong conversion kit combination or motor type, or haven't configured firmware properly. I was quite content with my legal 250W manufacturer rated 36V BBS01B 20" wheeled Dahon conversion's hill climbing and bicycle trailer hauling capabiliy with the controller limit at 15A, but it's even better at 18A. Faster uphill at 18A, but it conquered any hill with only 15A anyway. Even with your heavier bodyweight and larger wheels, I'm sure you'd find 36V X 20A = legal 720W pedal assist with "Keep current" in firmware at 100% satisfactory. Most batteries seem ok discharging 15A continously, but it might first be a good idea to post details about your battery and BMS before increasing the amperage limit of your controller to 20A, for the battery experts to peruse.

If the DaFT make "500W" legal, I'd need to abandon folding bikes for the 500W BBS02B and a legal 1200W, to prevent my bike suddenly featuring a permanent fold, but quite honestly for me and my motor, manufacturer rated and stamped "250W" is more than enough.
 
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Tony1951

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Mar 27, 2016
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I'm shocked that video has only been viewed 1,300 times over 4 months. One of my mind numbingly boring videos about nothing whatsoever has quite irrationally, been viewed 18,129 times during the same time period. Weird.




Yes, we've chatted about that before. I uploaded destructions.

"250W" is stamped clearly under Bafang BBS01B motors.




You really should do it - it does seem folks who find hill ascension difficult, have bought the wrong conversion kit combination or motor type, or haven't configured firmware properly. I was quite content with my legal 250W manufacturer rated 36V BBS01B 20" wheeled Dahon conversion's hill climbing and bicycle trailer hauling capabiliy with the controller limit at 15A, but it's even better at 18A. Faster uphill at 18A, but it conquered any hill with only 15A anyway. Even with your heavier bodyweight and larger wheels, I'm sure you'd find 36V X 20A = legal 720W pedal assist with "Keep current" in firmware at 100% satisfactory. Most batteries seem ok discharging 15A continously, but it might first be a good idea to post details about your battery and BMS before increasing the amperage limit of your controller to 20A, for the battery experts to peruse.

If the DaFT make "500W" legal, I'd need to abandon folding bikes for the 500W BBS02B and a legal 1200W, to prevent my bike suddenly featuring a permanent fold, but quite honestly for me and my motor, manufacturer rated and stamped "250W" is more than enough.
Heavier body weight??

I'm a bit over twelve stone.... :)

I have made a note of your post detailing your settings and have downloaded the app for android. I may buy a cable. It isn't top of my agenda right now though, but I appreciate your pointers.
 

guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
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Heavier body weight??

I'm a bit over twelve stone.... :)
Heavier, like I said :cool:


I have made a note of your post detailing your settings and have downloaded the app for android. I may buy a cable. It isn't top of my agenda right now though, but I appreciate your pointers.
Keep screenshots of your original settings, and save a config file, just in case - when I increased controller amperage limit, it wouldn't change first couple of tries... but then it threw a fit and many parameters changed to strange values all over the place.
 
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lenny

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May 3, 2023
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Benjahmin

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Nov 10, 2014
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So, once again, it looks like the ill informed promulgate the misunderstood.
They all seem to be talking about an uprating of output power when there is no limit on output power. There seems to be no knowledge that it is 'continuous rated power' that they are talking about.
If some dipstick gets this wrong we could end up with a 14A limit on a 36v controller (500w).
The concerns about throttles I kind of agree with. I'm quite happy with the 4mph throttle that goes full range once I'm pedalling. gets away on hilss and quickly converts.
As to not knowing who's asking for this? It'll be skulduggery to get e-scooters classified as legal.
 
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guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
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The concerns about throttles I kind of agree with. I'm quite happy with the 4mph throttle that goes full range once I'm pedalling. gets away on hilss and quickly converts.
As to not knowing who's asking for this? It'll be skulduggery to get e-scooters classified as legal.
I do wish the throttle on my BBS01B kit did that, but the speed is set pedalling or not, and the lowest it can be set is 15kph - throttles on cheap non-KT hub drive bikes seem to operate similarly ie set to some speed, and reading some threads, sometimes set too low. After firmware finangling, I'm quite content without a throttle.
 

Hoppy33

Finding my (electric) wheels
Nov 29, 2023
10
8
I do wish the throttle on my BBS01B kit did that, but the speed is set pedalling or not, and the lowest it can be set is 15kph - throttles on cheap non-KT hub drive bikes seem to operate similarly ie set to some speed, and reading some threads, sometimes set too low. After firmware finangling, I'm quite content without a throttle.
The proposal for a full-time full-power throttle option (up 15.5mph) is the best aspect of all this. To suggest that throttles are unnecessary is to ignore the wants and needs of perhaps the biggest and fastest-growing sector of the whole cycling market - newcomers and returnees - who are so badly needed. To these people, throttles are fundamental to safety and are the gateway to a confident and enjoyable cycling future (I do not say that lightly). Who cares if you have to pedal or not? At least you're out and about on a bike.

They are not 'enthusiasts' and I am disappointed by the prejudice often shown towards them, not to mention the industry's unfounded fear that somehow throttles are a short road to legislative oblivion. This is nonsense - the DfT's genuine intention is to encourage active mobility and this has been clearly demonstrated by multiple initiatives since the Boris Bike some 14 years ago. It's happening on a global scale and ebikes are central to it.

Meanwhile, all my local bike shops are full of glittering sports and performance bikes, many of them electric but way above most budgets. Do they have a throttle? "No sir, throttles are illegal." What?! Talk about cutting your own throat.

There is strong consumer demand for more powerful ebikes, with throttles. And escooters too. Heck, they're already here, they're not going away and need to be legally integrated into the new active transport landscape. It's a frustratingly complex legislative problem, and it demands bold investment in cycling infrastructure too, but we've got to start somewhere. Doing nothing is not an option.
 
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