eBike or icBike?

[lemmy]

I was reading some quite interesting figures the other day on the realities of electric power. Someone pointed out that electricity was not like petrol or coal, a source of power, but a means of transmitting it. Thus, the true co2 emissions of an electric vehicle depend on the power source of the current.

In the UK, where most power comes from coal or oil, the average emission would be 128 g/km. In France, for example, where 80% of the electricity is derived from nuclear power, it would be 12g/km. (Of course, the emissions will be centred in a different locality but they are emitted nevertheless.)

In the UK, therefore, an electrically powered vehicle is not necessarily less polluting than a petrol one, especially if you take into account the power losses on power line distribution, voltage conversion and battery inefficiency, heating etc.

So, here is my point. If we kept the same legal power constraints as per e-bikes but purpose designed a small IC motor using as much modern technology as possible, tailored in its output characteristics to a pedal assisted machine, using the lightest materials and best engine management programming - what could we achieve in range and cost per mile?

 

[Ultra Motor]

I was reading some quite interesting figures the other day on the realities of electric power. Someone pointed out that electricity was not like petrol or coal, a source of power, but a means of transmitting it. Thus, the true co2 emissions of an electric vehicle depend on the power source of the current.

In the UK, where most power comes from coal or oil, the average emission would be 128 g/km. In France, for example, where 80% of the electricity is derived from nuclear power, it would be 12g/km. (Of course, the emissions will be centred in a different locality but they are emitted nevertheless.)

In the UK, therefore, an electrically powered vehicle is not necessarily less polluting than a petrol one, especially if you take into account the power losses on power line distribution, voltage conversion and battery inefficiency, heating etc.

So, here is my point. If we kept the same legal power constraints as per e-bikes but purpose designed a small IC motor using as much modern technology as possible, tailored in its output characteristics to a pedal assisted machine, using the lightest materials and best engine management programming - what could we achieve in range and cost per mile?

Hi Lemmy,

An interesting thought, but flawed.

What you are calculating is the 'carbon cost' of the fuel. Like for like an electric vehicle emits 0 carbon. If you calculate the 'carbon cost' of extracting oil, refining, delivering to the petrol station etc + the odd issue, like BP have had recently then run the figures, you'll find petrol vehicles are far far more polluting.....

Thanks
Mark

 

[Trevor Holloway]

Just had a look on the web and a 5cc model aeroplane engine is stated as giving out 0.5 hp (367 w), thats the peak output at 10,000 rpm and weiging in at only 9.8 ounces !
I doubt the torque would be enough, too many tiny components, also many model planes are now going over to electric as it is more socially acceptable and easier with improved battery technology.
Might be a nice little project to see if it would work.
How about a hybrid ie model diesel engine (running off old chip oil) generating the power to charge the battery ?

 

[lemmy]

Like for like an electric vehicle emits 0 carbon.

So looked at in the round, an electric vehicle has no carbon footprint then?

If I run a petrol generator to supply electricity to my house it has the same carbon footprint whether it is next to or 100 miles from my house does it not?

 

[Caph]

electricity was not like petrol or coal, a source of power, but a means of transmitting it

It's a good point lemmy. An electric vehicle is only as environmentally friendly as the power station that feeds it! At least with an electric bike you have the option of fitting a couple of solar panels to your shed feeding a leisure battery and you're well on your way to environmentally friendly nirvana.

Also, the three yearly replacement of big batteries tends to get overlooked in the environmental equation.

I suppose that at least with electric vehicles, we immediately take advantage of any move towards more renewable energy on the national grid.

 

[Bandit]

In terms of energy efficiency (kWh per 100 passenger km) e-bikes come out pretty well. The Vectrix scooter reportedly needs 2.75kWh per 100p-km which compares well with the 80kWh required by a single passenger car. My e-bike seems to require about .65kWh per 100p-km, but that doesn't include my input, of course. An unassisted pedal bike is said to require about 1.6kWh per 100p-km at 20km/h (which is better and faster than walking), so whether an e-bike can compete with an ordinary bike for efficiency and carbon footprint depends on how much the rider has to put in and what his or her source of energy is. It's entirely possible that an overweight rider on a high fat diet would have lower fossil carbon emissions on an e-bike than a non-e-bike.

 

[lemmy]

It's entirely possible that an overweight rider on a high fat diet would have lower fossil carbon emissions on an e-bike than a non-e-bike.

An overweight rider on a high fat diet might be better advised to ride a heavy e-bike with the motor turned off - until he's no longer overweight

 

[Bandit]

An overweight rider on a high fat diet might be better advised to ride a heavy e-bike with the motor turned off - until he's no longer overweight

He might, but he'd also have to change his diet. I think if you subsist on, say, Walker's Crisps, you extract less energy from the food than was embedded in its production, and the production process itself would be pretty fossil carbon intensive. We're doomed, I tell ya.

 

[Scimitar]

An overweight rider on a high fat diet might be better advised to ride a heavy e-bike with the motor turned off - until he's no longer overweight

I know what you mean

 

[Clarkey]

How about one of these for an IC bike?

Or maybe this one?

 

[lemmy]

The bottom one looks a bit difficult to pedal! What on earth are these?

 

[CeeGee]

The bottom one looks a bit difficult to pedal! What on earth are these?

Wot! Never seen a rocket bike before.

Colin

 

[Clarkey]

They are pulsejet powered bikes made by a slightly crazed American called Robert Maddox. He builds them as collectors pieces and they are, indeed, beautifully done but they also actually work.

The pulsejets are fuelled by propane and produce about 60-120lb of thrust. The bikes get up to about 75mph - rather him than me! They also produce unbelievable amounts of noise and glow cherry red when running flat out. They work in the same manner as the engine of the V1 'doodlebug'.

There are several videos around on youtube of the bikes running.

 

[lemmy]

There are several videos around on youtube of the bikes running.

I'll take a look. Looks like fun to me.