eBrompton newbie

[polyphasic]

Jerry told me about this site, so I'll explain where I am in my new journey to ebikes.

I've ordered a Brompton bike from NYCewheels in NYC back in April. I am unsure whether I should purchase their electric kit after seeing the range specs of the Nano. And I see there are a lot of DIY kits out there, but since I'm from the USA, well even the Nano has to be a DIY kit since electricwheels doesn't ship to the U.S. So I'm left salivating at the range specs of the Nano for the same Ah battery as the NYCewheel version. Double to triple the range! It seems too good to be true. It makes me wonder whether there's some exaggeration going on with Nano and/or whether NYCewheels is being conservative with their numbers.

Here's what NYCewheels offers.
Brompton folding bicycle | electric bike motor kit

So I've written a pros/cons list:

Pros of NYCewheels kit
- local dealer thus local 1 year warranty
- 18mph top speed
- forks are not widened/modified
- no making dropouts bigger to allow axle to fit
- working on a modular battery pack that snaps together to a 6AH to 14AH pack that can be taken apart while traveling.

Cons of NYCewheels kit
- 10Ah battery provides a mere 20 mile range (14AH at 28miles)
- Heavy motor, controller and battery (18-20lbs)
- $1895-$2095
- slow charger 5-6 hours
- can't take larger than 300watt/h batteries on U.S. flights (8.2AH x 36V is max)

Pros of Nano 2.0
- 10Ah provides 40-50 mile range @ 15mph
- 5Ah provides up to 20 miles
- Light motor and controller (10AH battery is about the same weight)
- 5Ah battery can be taken on U.S. flights
- less expensive
- fast charger option for 10ah (2 hours)

Con of Nano 2.0
- forks have to be modified/widened.
- electricwheel.co.uk doesn't ship to the USA
- figuring out where to get all the parts and putting Humpty Dumpty together.


The only thing keeping me from buying the electric kit from NYCewheels is the fact that their range of 20 miles seems to be a third to half of the range of the Nano. While it's nice that the NYCE kit goes 18mph, I would be far happier with 15mph at double the range.

Any idea why the NYCewheel version gets so much less range? They both seem to be 250 watt motors using 36 volt lithium polymer batteries.

 

[benjy_a]

Jerry told me about this site, so I'll explain where I am in my new journey to ebikes.

I've ordered a Brompton bike from NYCewheels in NYC back in April. I am unsure whether I should purchase their electric kit after seeing the range specs of the Nano. And I see there are a lot of DIY kits out there, but since I'm from the USA, well even the Nano has to be a DIY kit since electricwheels doesn't ship to the U.S. So I'm left salivating at the range specs of the Nano for the same Ah battery as the NYCewheel version. Double to triple the range! It seems too good to be true. It makes me wonder whether there's some exaggeration going on with Nano and/or whether NYCewheels is being conservative with their numbers.

Here's what NYCewheels offers.
Brompton folding bicycle | electric bike motor kit

So I've written a pros/cons list:

Pros of NYCewheels kit
- local dealer thus local 1 year warranty
- 18mph top speed
- forks are not widened/modified
- no making dropouts bigger to allow axle to fit
- working on a modular battery pack that snaps together to a 6AH to 14AH pack that can be taken apart while traveling.

Cons of NYCewheels kit
- 10Ah battery provides a mere 20 mile range (14AH at 28miles)
- Heavy motor, controller and battery (18-20lbs)
- $1895-$2095
- slow charger 5-6 hours
- can't take larger than 300watt/h batteries on U.S. flights (8.2AH x 36V is max)

Pros of Nano 2.0
- 10Ah provides 40-50 mile range @ 15mph
- 5Ah provides up to 20 miles
- Light motor and controller (10AH battery is about the same weight)
- 5Ah battery can be taken on U.S. flights
- less expensive
- fast charger option for 10ah (2 hours)

Con of Nano 2.0
- forks have to be modified/widened.
- electricwheel.co.uk doesn't ship to the USA
- figuring out where to get all the parts and putting Humpty Dumpty together.


The only thing keeping me from buying the electric kit from NYCewheels is the fact that their range of 20 miles seems to be a third to half of the range of the Nano. While it's nice that the NYCE kit goes 18mph, I would be far happier with 15mph at double the range.

Any idea why the NYCewheel version gets so much less range? They both seem to be 250 watt motors using 36 volt lithium polymer batteries.

Hi and welcome,

The NYCewheels conversion I believe uses the Crystalyte 209 motor which is the predecessor to the G209 I have just installed into my brompton.

This is a much higher power motor than the Nano, its not just about top speed it's also about peak power output. Not sure what controller the NYCewheels package uses but the potential power output is probably 2-3 times that of the Nano. Therefore sustained speed on hills and acceleration will be far superior. The penalty is less range and heavier. However, range is also entirely dependant on how you ride and several other factors (your weight, hills, wind, rider effort etc ).

I went for a crystalyte conversion with a big battery as I want a powerful motor which can whizz me up hills. The Nano is suitable for those who want light assist and a less intrusive conversion.

The nano has had some long term reliability issues with components in the motor wearing out. Not a huge issue if you have a local dealer to service and repair but for you....well I'd think carefully. Crystalyte have a good reliability record.

Ben

 

[polyphasic]

Thanks for the information. That information opened up more online doors of information including your own G209 build link. It appears the crystallite 209 is no longer being offered with a note that there will be a replacement motor to come out in December, but are you indirectly implying this G209 is that december reference? Crystalyte Europe :: Motors :: 2 series

Not sure I'm keen on a discontinued motor at time of purchase and it appears from your build link that a G209 replacement will require spreading the fork like the rest of the motor kits, the latter is not a big deal but good to know nonetheless. I suppose nycewheels would replace it with a G209 if something went wrong and supply was out of stock.

@ 3.9kg (8.8lbs)...it's nearly double the weight of the Nano. Well, I'd love to know what kind of range you're getting with your new G209 setup. I'm enticed by that double/triple the range, lighter and more efficient. It's dangling in front of me like a carrot.

 

[flecc]

Yes, the Crystalyte version performs better but is working more of the time, hence higher consumption.

The Nano Brompton when tested by A to B magazine here was quoted with a very high range at an average speed of just over 16 mph. However, they also reported the motor cut-off at 14 mph initially, soon dropping to 13 mph after the first flush of battery charge. Since the test area was not very hilly, putting those together shows it was the rider's range rather than the battery range that was being claimed!

In your circumstances and taking all factors into account, I'd say go to Nycewheels for their conversion.

 

[benjy_a]

Yes the motor I have installed is the replacement to the 209 which has only just been released (6 months later than the website states).

If you look on the crystalyte website under G series motors it's the one with 74mm dropout and mentions the Brompton I believe.

I wouldn't be so sure that NYCewheels don't in fact widen the forks, the 209 looks to be a very similar size to the G series. The issue is of course that the forks narrow very quickly from 74mm and the motor does not; therefore the top of the motor fouls the forks after they narrow. Cheeky really to sell it as being compatible with Brompton forks when widening is so blatantly necessary!

You may also find NYCewheels have already moved to the G series...it may well have been released to dealers before being sold to the general public. Also the motors for the U.S market are wound faster to give 20mph at 36v as opposed to 15mph for us Europeans. You will find the NYCewheels significantly faster...but as discussed heavier and probably less range on the same battery as you will undoubtedly be utilising the extra power. So...bigger battery for the same range = even more weight.

A tough decision and the smaller lighter nano may well be more suited to what you need...but only you can decide that!

Why not buy both? Or...have another wheel built with the nano motor and do a custom swappable front wheel? You would need to do something like fit a cycle analyst to limit the current to the nano motor or you would kill it with the NYCewheels 20A controller.

Ben

 

[polyphasic]

I noticed they have four controllers for this discontinued Crystalyte 209 motor.

24V 10A - powers at 180 watts
36V 10A - powers at 250 watts
36V 20A - powers at 250 watts
48V 10A - powers at 250 watts

NYCewheels uses a 36V20A "custom" controller. Would any of the other controller options significantly enhance the range? NYC is generally flat terrain.

Yes, the Crystalyte version performs better but is working more of the time, hence higher consumption.

Why not buy both? Or...have another wheel built with the nano motor and do a custom swappable front wheel? You would need to do something like fit a cycle analyst to limit the current to the nano motor or you would kill it with the NYCewheels 20A controller.

Ben

 

[benjy_a]

I noticed they have four controllers for this discontinued Crystalyte 209 motor.

24V 10A - powers at 180 watts
36V 10A - powers at 250 watts
36V 20A - powers at 250 watts
48V 10A - powers at 250 watts

NYCewheels uses a 36V20A "custom" controller. Would any of the other controller options significantly enhance the range? NYC is generally flat terrain.

Crystalyte supply the motor as a kit with a 12A controller which they obviously feel is sufficient. This would increase your range a lot especially if you're mostly using it on the flat.

Is there a specific reason you're after such a massive range? Do you really anticipate wanting to do 40-50 miles between charges?

You could always fit a programmable controller which would enable you to increase the Max current if you find that you want more power and don't need as much range as you thought?

Ben

 

[jhruk]

Hi polyphasic

Perhaps you might also consider the 83mm Cute Q85 motor from BMS Battery. It’s about the same size and weight as the Tongxin (Nano) but uses conventional toothed gearing rather than the unusual friction system in the Tongxin. This makes it slightly noisier, but probably more robust.

The 328rpm version is slightly faster than the 260rpm Nano, and should give around 16mph in a 16” Brompton wheel at 36v. With the kit supplied 14amp controller I’d say it fell between the Nano and the Crystalyte power wise.

I run one in a 20” wheel Dahon and forum member slippa is in the process of putting one in a Brompton - see this thread. He’s going to run it at 48v to get more speed, so is using a different controller, but if you ran it at 36v the BMS kit includes nearly everything you need except for the battery, which they can also supply.

If you’re not in a hurry it might be worth waiting to see how he gets on with it.

 

[polyphasic]

I want to sincerely thank everybody for sharing their ideas and suggestions. I find this forum filled with people eager to help. After giving this much thought I've decided to go with the least-tested motor out there, the Goldant V Power motor due to the weight saving design and range. I think it'll provide exactly what I'm looking for so long as it's reliable. It's untested in terms of reliability, so we shall see.

If I had went with the NYCewheels, I'd have a heavier bike to carry with a 15 mile range on an 8.2Ah battery. (the maximum watt/hour allowed on a flight). It would be nice to fancy the idea of having both the power/ebike aspects of a crystalyte 209 and the range/pedelec features of the Goldant, but the 209 does not require widening of the fork. Swapping forks seems a bit much though if crystalyte offered their folding bike kit for their advertised price of 730 Euros, then it'd be tempting to buy it just to see how it stacks up. At least then I could sell it and not feel such a huge loss as I would paying more than double that figure here locally.

Maybe that's the skeptic in me wondering if the Nano really gets the range they claim in the AtoB magazine reviews from 2007 to the latest Nano 2.0 in the Feb 2012. 46-48 miles on 10Ah, half that on a 5Ah. Most conflicting to this claim is freedomebikes FAQ claim that their Nano based system using 4.5Ah system only gets 7.5 to 9 miles in Sydney (I've never been, but it doesn't look all that hilly to me) and using the vague word of getting "more" on flat terrain sounds alarm bells. That's less than half to a third of what AtoB seems to claim, so then I'm left wondering does this Crystalyst 209 get only slightly less range??? After reading enough forum pages to make my vision blurry, finding answers on range seems to be like a diamond in the rough. Your mileage will vary seems to be the going answer. But I'm going to ignore my pessimism and be optimistic about the range claims by electricwheel.

Overall, I think I'd be happy with a goldant if it can provide the significantly longer range. Certainly, the light-weight carrying abilities of the Goldant Brompton is top on the list of likes. I'm a sucker for the long range claims. For people that don't plan to travel or carry the Brompton over long distances, then the Crystalyte speed/power seems like a win-win. For me, I can't find reason to purchase for those two trade-offs. It doesn't seem there's a system out there to have the best of both worlds and since Europe seems to be the dominant market for electric bikes, 15mph is going to be the benchmark for most motors.

The Goldant is a much less expensive option to start out with, so I can always go back and fork down two grand at nycewheels should it not live up to my expectations. Or maybe by then Brompton will have released their rumored electric bike leaving this early adopter stuff for storytelling at bike shows.

Oh and one more thing, I was reading the FAQ on electricwheel's website. To my surprise they offer a pedal sensor for the Nano. So I gather the bike can be either an ebike or a pedelec, or does it have the capability of having both throttle and pedal?
Is the NANO legal?
Yes. ... Power assisted speed must not exceed 25kph (15 mph) EU countries require a pedal sensor, although the UK does not. We offer a pedal sensor option for an additional £50 if required. Riders must be 14 years old or more to ride the bike legally on the road.

 

[flecc]

As I remarked earlier, I considered the A to B Nano range to be more a measure of the rider than the machine, much of the test mileage ridden at well above power cut-off speed. The enthusiasm was perhaps understandable since the rider, David Henshaw, was involved together with Tony Castles in the original design of this Nano-Brompton setup.

I hope the Goldant motor does do what you want, it sounds an interesting project.

 

[polyphasic]

As I remarked earlier, I considered the A to B Nano range to be more a measure of the rider than the machine, much of the test mileage ridden at well above power cut-off speed. The enthusiasm was perhaps understandable since the rider, David Henshaw, was involved together with Tony Castles in the original design of this Nano-Brompton setup.

I hope the Goldant motor does do what you want, it sounds an interesting project.

Thanks. Though for as long as they have been selling these Nano motors (2006 or 2007?), you'd think there would be a review from a buyer shouting their range stats is BS. Maybe they're out there and I just don't know where to look.

 

[flecc]

Yes, I haven't seen such a review, but at the time of that test by A to B, a number of us in here made this same observation about the test details and claimed range which were obviously suspect. Because the power cut-off speed is low at 13 mph or a little over, any reasonable rider will get a good range, but it's likely to be more in the 22 to 30 miles region from that 10 Ah battery, depending on rider and territory.

 

[slippa]

Most conflicting to this claim is freedomebikes FAQ claim that their Nano based system using 4.5Ah system only gets 7.5 to 9 miles in Sydney (I've never been, but it doesn't look all that hilly to me) and using the vague word of getting "more" on flat terrain sounds alarm bells.

I was in Sydney two weeks ago and I can say that there are certainly some steep hills running up from Darling Harbour and through China Town. I was thinking I'd be hard-pushed to make it up them on my Brompton.

 

[daniel.weck]

Welcome to the forum!

Regarding range: like others have said here and on BromptonTalk, factors like rider's fitness, route gradients / elevation, wind resistance, etc. make it difficult to give a realistic estimate for a particular individual, in a particular set of circumstances. Like Jerry Simon, I use small A123 battery packs for my short predictable journeys (mostly of a utilitarian nature), but I have my trusty 10Ah LiFePo4 pack ready for longer, more "adventurous" week-end rides.

Regarding "eBike" versus "pedelec": I installed a throttle override along with the pedal sensor on my DIY e-Brompton. I find the throttle extremely useful when I need to quickly get the bike in motion from standstill (traffic lights, junctions, etc.), as it means I can stay in high gear and yet promptly gather speed with both human and electric power combined. Otherwise, once in momentum, I just let the pedal sensor determine the amount of power to supply based on my cadence, i.e. I search the most adequate of the 6 gears (2x derailleur, 3x hub) depending on the ride conditions.

I also have a 3-way switch that limits power (something like high=100%, medium=60%, low=30%). That's quite useful in very slow-moving traffic.

I hope you can "try before you buy", as this would give you a good idea of what to expect in practice.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!!
Cheers, Dan

 

[Kenny768]

Where are you from Daniel Weck. I am still looking for a suitable Brompton build thats light, fast and reliable.

 

[daniel.weck]

Where are you from Daniel Weck. I am still looking for a suitable Brompton build thats light, fast and reliable.

My Brompton build is based on a M6R+ model, so definitely not the lightest of the range (rear rack, M-type handlebar, 3 hub speeds x 3 derailleur speeds, extended seat post, standard steel bits). It's not the most reliable setup with the Tongxin motor on, but with the Bafang / 8-Fun motor definitely feels more robust (at the expense of extra weight in the front wheel, and increased noise).

As for speed: the small 16" wheels on the Brompton and the low gearing mean that the bike is better at putting out torque than riding fast. The maximum legal assisted speed is reached quite naturally by virtue of the laws of physics (nominal motor RPM + small wheels), it's not like if there was an electronic switch brutally cutting e-power at an arbitrary speed.

The assistance comes-in handy exactly where I need it: to help me pedal hard when going up the hills. As soon as I pick-up some speed, the assistance cuts-out and I am back in "normal" cycling mode. That's how I like it, but I know some people prefer moped-like assistance.

Cheers!
Daniel

PS: I live in the interwebs of south-east england.

 

[cwah]

Having a direct drive motor of 4.6kg on my Brompton, I'd say that it doesn't have as much acceleration as a similar geared motor.

It is also much less efficient, unless you're cuising around 10-15 mph.


I'd be interested to see power consumtion between a geared motor and a small direct drive motor (to date there is only the G209 and the Conhismotor mini-hub). I'd bet that the geared motor is much more efficient, especially on hills and city with a lot of start and stop.


The G209 can have much better acceleration than a nano-motor (or Tongxin) only because it's bigger and it's able to handle more power. Feed more power to the geared motor, and it will beat the direct drive easily.


If you need more acceleration or more speed, just get a bigger geared motor. I'd say get a Cute100 or Cute 128. It should have better acceleration and still be lighter than the G209.

I'd even say if you want to go over 1000W, just get a BPM and you'll able to feed as much power as the G209. It will have way better acceleration than the G209..

You'll have enough torque to break your dropouts even with torque arm installed (happened to some members).

And the motor is as heavy as the G209.



My point is:
Forget any direct drive motor for the Brompton. Small direct drive motor have drag, have low acceleration and are heavy. They work fine when they have a lot of cooper and can reach 90% efficiency, but they'll weight 10kg. On lightweight setup, direct drive motors have disavantage on weight, torque and efficiency.

The only reason you would want to go for a direct drive motor on a Brompton is if you want to reach more than 30 mph. The gears will wear when the RPM are too right, otherwise just for a geared one.

If you need more power, just get a bigger geared motor.

 

[benjy_a]

I have to disagree with Cwah somewhat...in my experience so far my Crystalyte G209 Brompton has similar acceleration, top speed and efficiency as my Bafang 8fun Juicy Sport but needs 48v to achieve this due to the slow RPM at 36v. If I wanted to run it illegally it would easily cruise at 20+ MPH with different controller settings but will sit at 15.5mph all day and up most hills at that speed which is what I want.

Cwah as I understand it you are running a small DD motor at very high voltage, going supersonic speeds on a Brompton and wondering why you get poor efficiency from your motor?

I am so far very very pleased with the Crystalyte and hopeful that it will prove to be ultra reliable having no internal gearing. It is also virtually silent.

My chargers arrive tomorrow for my Cellman battery so I will be conducting further efficiency / performance tests. I can totally see that this motor is not for everyone as it's quite heavy but that's no issue for me.

Half of the motors that Cwah mentions will not fit on a Brompton without serious frame/fork/dropout modification. God knows what you would have to do to safely run the high torque BPM motor on a Brompton...crazy talk in my opinion and v dangerous.

 

[cwah]

I'd be interested to see the result between your small bafang and the crystalyte, both on continuous load (the G209 should perform a little bit better) and on acceleration (the Bafang should perform much better, althought it's a smaller motor so less torque)

If you can check the acceleration at 300W and 500W for both motor, and also on continuous load, that would be great data between direct drive and geared motor. (without peddaling)


I do run a very little motor on very high voltage and power. I use over 2000W power for acceleration, but I don't run at very high speed. I'm 99% of the time around 20-25mph. So the speed is far from being supersonic, some road bike are still faster than me

But as I live in city, I never run more than 500m without having to stop. So I do a lot of start and stop and my bike is highly inefficient.

So unless the journey is mainly flat road, the geared motor should be more efficient than the direct drive at similar speed and power usage.


I don't recommend neither the BPM for the Brompton, but I believe a Cute100 or Cute128 will work fine on the Brompton. The fork has to be spread to 100mm of course, but from what I've seen you still have to spread the fork even on a small nano-motor.

Then you end up with a ligter motor, with freewheel, and that will be at least as efficient as a geared motor. And much more efficient if you have to stop and start or if you have hills.

 

[benjy_a]

Without making any comments about legality etc as that topic has been done to death...I'm not averse to speed; I can manage 30mph on the flat on my non electric road bike and waaaaay faster down hill.

The reference to supersonic speeds was of course tongue in cheek however...I feel that a sustained, unassisted 20-25mph on a 16" wheeled Brompton on potholed London roads is dangerous. At 15-17mph on my Brompton I spend most of my time hawking the road ahead for dips and potholes to avoid.

In terms of comparing efficiency I'm afraid I don't have the time for scientific comparisons. I make my previous observations based on daily experience and the fact both bikes seem to use almost exactly the same amount of Wh as each other over similar distances and terrain (both have cycle analysts fitted).

Ben