electric rohloff hubgear question

[cogs]

my bike has a rohloff and an alien (bafang) front wheel drive self build kit.

Excellent as the set up is, i feel that there may be some benefit to be had from a new frame which was dedicated and designed as an ebike (which mine is not).

i've noticed that wisper (and maybe other manufacturers) are making hubgeared ebikes available now (the Alfino range being an example), and i was wondering if anyone knows whether such bike frames (ie, with hubgear dedicated dropouts) were available as a separate purchase?

 

[Streethawk]

Where do you have your battery mounted now? Also, how would your current battery fit into the very specific Wisper frame mount?

Another concern for me would be that while such a frame would lower the C of G, the sheers length would slow the steering and responsivements somewhat too, so its one trade-off for another in my opinion.

 

[cogs]

Where do you have your battery mounted now? Also, how would your current battery fit into the very specific Wisper frame mount?

Another concern for me would be that while such a frame would lower the C of G, the sheers length would slow the steering and responsivements somewhat too, so its one trade-off for another in my opinion.

Agreed Streethawk. my battery is rear mounted on the pannier rack.

Maybe what is needed is a complete ebike minus the rear gearhubbed wheel so that the rohloff could be installed?

Beginning to sound expensive..

 

[OTH]

.... i feel that there may be some benefit to be had from a new frame which was dedicated and designed as an ebike ......

What shortcomings do you think you present setup has?

 

[cogs]

Good question OTH.

Streethawk touched on one, the centre of gravity is quite high with my arrangement, and locating the battery at a lower position above the bb and behind the seatpost would make for greater stability.

Another area involves the forks i have, which are not dedicated to holding a bafang.

i really like the Rohloff as well, but electric bikes generally don't have the required horizontal drop outs.

So many areas where improvement could be a possibility over the collection of compromises that i currently ride..

 

[overthehill]

roholf dropouts

Do a search on Kinetics I believe they do a dropout converter
Alex

 

[cogs]

Do you mean to convert a pre owned Wisper (for example) frame OvertheHill?

Its a thought..

i suppose the Rohloff could be abandoned all together, but i'm unconvinced that an Alfine hub would satisfy my physical requirements when it came to negotiating hills (i've a knee and ticker disability, and use a hinged crank). The Rohloff has such a brilliant range of gearing that almost all hills can be tackled without over exertion.

 

[flecc]

Another approach would be to buy a sound 2 to 3 year old e-bike with a dud battery, they can be had quite cheaply since they are useless without an expensive battery. Then swap in your electric kit and Rohloff.

Most suitable bikes are still derailleur frame, but you can overcome that simply with an add-on chain tensioner arm.
.

 

[Streethawk]

Do you mean to convert a pre owned Wisper (for example) frame OvertheHill?

Its a thought..

i suppose the Rohloff could be abandoned all together, but i'm unconvinced that an Alfine hub would satisfy my physical requirements when it came to negotiating hills (i've a knee and ticker disability, and use a hinged crank). The Rohloff has such a brilliant range of gearing that almost all hills can be tackled without over exertion.

Hopefully Wisper will quickly adopt the new 11 speed Alfine hub which has a much wider range (still not as wide as a Rohloff though), rather than wait until 2012 models to adopt the new hub.

 

[cogs]

Another approach would be to buy a sound 2 to 3 year old e-bike with a dud battery, they can be had quite cheaply since they are useless without an expensive battery. Then swap in your electric kit and Rohloff.

Most suitable bikes are still derailleur frame, but you can overcome that simply with an add-on chain tensioner arm.
.

That is a very good point flecc, and the chain tensioner to obviate the lack of horizontal dropouts is one i hadn't considered.

Although i've a Rohloff (acquired second hand ten years ago), money, as ever, is at the root of some of my difficulties. £2000 for a decent quality ebike simply isn't an option - so its make do and mend - thanks for offering a potential solution.

 

[Bruce]

Experience with a Rohloff eBike

I thought I'd chip in with some real life experience. I converted a Thorn Raven with a Henzemann electric motor in 2004 and then rode it for about 5000 miles a year until 2010 when I sold it.

The Thorn Raven is a Rohloff specific frame, but with the high mileages I was doing, you still had to adjust the chain tension (at the bottom bracket) every 1000 miles - i.e. about every 3 months. With hindsight, I would always recommend a frame with vertical dropouts, a Rohloff with a torque arm and a Rohloff chain tensioner (the best on the market). Once you have fitted it all - no more maintenance for over a year. Just add oil.

My maintenance schedule was ludicrously low. Oil the chain when it squeaks. Fix a puncture in the Marathon Plus tyres once every two years and every 10,000 miles change the chain. After 30,000 miles I took the Rohloff cog off and turned it around to even the wear.

I spent 3 years moving the batteries over the bike - high on a rear pannier, low on the rear pannier, low on front panniers, on the top tube, etc.

My optimum solution was to attach a custom mount onto the seat tube bottle cage and the down tube bottle cage. Tie the battery on with a toe strap and off you go.

With the weight of the batteries central and low, the weight of the Heinzemann balanced by the weight of the Rohloff, drop handlebars and tri-bars, I ended up with the electric tri-brid. The Marathon Plus tyres were fitted to super-strong Atom Pimp Rims that I hand built with extra strong spokes and ran the tyres over-pressure because the rims could take it.

Result - A bike that you could time-trial on the flat without assist at 23mph, it would climb hills at 16mph despite the weight and would descend at 40mph because of the weight. Once you got it going, it handled like a regular race bike and the weight was invisible. I often fitted a second battery to get the range up to 80 miles.

My advice - GET THE ROHLOFF. It is a superb piece of kit and lets you enjoy the riding without the worry of maintenance. The Alfine by comparison is fragile and quirky and doesn't give you that even 10% gear change with every click.

Bruce

 

[Streethawk]

The Alfine 11 has a 400%+ range, which is still a little less than a Rohloff, but i hear that it runs smoother than a Rohloff, non of that 4th gear noise issue, and as it uses similar technology, and an oil bath design it *should* be as reliable as the Rohloff too. The Alfine 8 was not nearly as reliable as the Rohloff, and the Nexus 8 is downright unreliable.

I guess time will tell. £350 for the Alfine 11 is still a lot less than £1000 for a Rohloff.

 

[indalo]

Streethawk, you've got me worrying now. I didn't know that the Nexus 8 hub is "downright unreliable." As my bike is equipped with one, is it just a question of time for me?

Indalo

 

[Streethawk]

From what i've heard... er, yes, sorry!

You may want to read the comments under this review

 

[indalo]

Read that thanks Streethawk.

The 8-speed has been fitted to quite a few Panasonic powered bikes over the last few years and many forum users ride such machines. I'd be interested to hear if there are similar tales of woe from readers as were reported in that article.

Trying to look on the bright side, I'm hoping that the failed hubs are only a minority as people are more inclined to complain loudly about poor products than they are to praise reliability as that should go without saying in this day and age.

Perhaps there's a huge silent majority out there who love their Nexus 8 hubs and have had total reliability?

Ever the optimist,
Indalo

 

[flecc]

The first 8 speed Nexus was unreliable but not many were made. The improved one which forms the majority was more reliable, The Alfine is very little different from current 8 speed Nexus, and the latter is very much more reliable than the venerable 7 speed.

It's all relative though. Considering the years that the 7 speed was around, the later ones being much better cannot be all that bad.

In truth, most of the problems are due to generations of cyclists who are clueless about how to use hub gears after 40 years of derailleur dominance, the remaining contribution to problems being Shimano's own with their silly insistence that all gear shifting can be done under load. This results from their derailleurs always being the fastest shifting and their desire for the hub gears to be able to claim the same.

As someone whose earlier years of cycling and cycle trade experience dates from when derailleurs scarcely existed and hub gears dominated, my advice remains, pause pedalling momentarily when gear changing. If your motor drives througn the same gears, as on the Panasonic system, that's doubly important. This practice greatly eases the strain of the sudden changes in torque that can occur internally, and also reduces the incidence of metal wear fragments which can grind up the hub contents.
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[HarryB]

Can I ask a quick relevant question? I am thinking of "upgrading" my emotion to either the Alfine 8 or 11 - I cannot afford the 11 at the moment but could get the 8 second-hand off ebay at a reasonable price. Are there any pitfalls in this?

I would have to get a vertical fitting kit and to add a tensioner but in terms of the gearing I am assuming that all versions of the Panasonic have 41 tooth chainwheels. I would just need to fit a 23 tooth rear sprocket to get the gearing right.

The main reason is the amount of maintenance with the chain at the moment and constantly having to fiddle with the cable adjuster to get the change right - it is an incredibly sensitive change. Also I am still suffering from the chain being thrown off the front chainwheel despite fitting a new chain and rear cassette. Re-fitting the chain back on is a right pain and was not appreciated in the pissing rain yesterday morning. I am also assuming that the chain would last longer without being dragged up and down gears by the derailleur?

 

[flecc]

Yes, all the new Panasonic units use the 41 tooth chainwheel, but you'd need a hub gear sprocket width (3/32") to suit the derailleur chain or use a 1/8" chain which should be fine on the chainwheel. I'm not sure about the compatibility of the derailleur motor's idler system with 1/8th chain etc with a hub gear though.

I'd personally be nervous about buying any second hand hub gear, not knowing how it had been treated previously.
.

 

[HarryB]

Yes, all the new Panasonic units use the 41 tooth chainwheel, but you'd need a hub gear sprocket width (3/32") to suit the derailleur chain or use a 1/8" chain which should be fine on the chainwheel. I'm not sure about the compatibility of the derailleur motor's idler system with 1/8th chain etc with a hub gear though.

I'd personally be nervous about buying any second hand hub gear, not knowing how it had been treated previously.
.

Noted about the chain width - I had assume that I would pop on a new 3/32th chain - I'll check the idler width but I am pretty sure that it would fit. Agreed also about the hub and it would have to be pretty much unused to be worthwhile (and I have found such a thing I think). Thanks for the info.

 

[indalo]

Well, I'm somewhat relieved to hear, (from flecc) that the picture regarding Nexus hubs isn't quite as bad as depicted in that article to which Streethawk drew attention.

I agree with and practise the momentary pause in gearchanging, (it's almost imperceptible but it does relieve the load) as I do when driving my car. With electric power on tap, I really can't see the point of rushing gearchanges. It's not as if lots of speed will be rubbed off in a split second.

Whether other people's Nexus units change gear as quietly or as smoothly as mine, I don't know but it's the best gearchange I've experienced on a bike.

Hoping it stays that way!

Indalo