Electric wheel company kit

Oiseaux

Pedelecer
Jan 19, 2011
128
0
La roche Posay, Vienne, France
I am still agonising over purchasing of electric bike, especially the price !! Am wondering if I should go the kit route for my Dawes and so far have looked at Sparticle and now The electric wheel company. I have searched on this forum for reviews but couldn't find anything recent. My criteria as well as price is;

No drag in non assist mode,
Relatively lightweight,
Can be assembled by someone competent with a spanner and finding a solution, but a bit of a duffer regarding electronics
Preferably low slung battery but would compromise

Would very much appreciate any comments, recommendations, advice etc which hopefully will put me out of my misery and let me get on with putting my hand in my pocket. !!

Thanks,

Oiseaux
 

NRG

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 6, 2009
2,592
10
At the risk of starting another debate; your first requirement divides opinion, I would suggest you go and try some bikes and see if you think there is no drag.

The amount of effort to ride with no assistance varies from bike to bike and from individual to individual so it is very subjective. One thing is for sure though, all electric bikes have some drag compared to a normal bike but its quantifying that drag into: do you find it acceptable or not, only you can decide.

'Lightweight' is also subjective unfortunately, most bikes being in the 24~26Kg bracket with the better ones 20Kg or less. Some will say on a powered bike weight does not matter and to some extent that is true but un-powered it can make a difference especially coupled with the drag point above or if you have to carry the bike upstairs or onto trains etc.

I think the lightest bikes with least drag are going to be one of the Panasonic powered bikes, the E-Motion getting down to ~17Kg or one of the Cytronex bikes. An alternative would be a Brompton conversion, I think Jerry and Dan both have very well thought out conversions which are even lighter using the Toxign motor.

You didn't say what your budget is, that may help to know and may be the overall deciding factor... :)

Just seen the Cytronex web site; 13.6Kg Cytronex Electric Bikes - Cytronex Powered Cannondale Capo Flatbar Single Speed Electric Bicycle

12.7Kg....Price on Application :eek: Cytronex Electric Bikes - Gadget Show Cannondale Super Six Dura Ace CarbonRacer Road Bicycle
 
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rh1968

Pedelecer
Oct 9, 2010
39
0
Hi Oiseaux,

I bought my whole kit (24V/250W motor built into front wheel, 10ah li-ion battery, charger, controller, pedelec & brake levers) from BMS Battery in China for £275 including shipping. As far as I can tell it's pretty much the same thing that one pays £600 for in this country, certainly works a treat, easy to fit (like you I have no electric expertise) and only adds 7kg to the weight of the bike.

Cheers,

Rendel
 

vectra

Pedelecer
Feb 5, 2011
213
5
Hi Have you looked at the daahub from whisper they should have stock soon

Not cheap BUT the kit will be super and the support excellent

It should be Available from your local wisper dealer they are all on wispers web site

D a a H u b By Wisper Premium electric bike conversion kit Daa Price and Availability

Wisper Lithium Electric Bikes, Pedelecs, and Electric Bicycles.

Frank
If you require a bike SOON...then don't wait for this kit! It's late arriving and still with no uncertain date (June/July?). Best write the DaaHub off unless you are prepared to wait until later in the year.

I picked up on this late last November and was prepared to wait however late development and an uncertain delivery date has meant that I've had to move on from it.

Unless, of course, someone can provide a reaistic delivery schedule?

Good Luck.
Regards
vectra
 

eTim

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 19, 2009
607
2
Andover, Hants.
I have one of these, as far as I know it is THE lightest electric bike in the world and I'm not sure how many have been produced/sold, so I'm expecting it to increase in value as the years go by :rolleyes: but if cost is your main factor then this bike will not be on your shortlist

Other Cytronex's are more reasonably priced, but as there is not a budget mentioned it is difficult to guess. You will find any Cytronex a very easy bike to maneouvre and ride without assistance as they are essentially normal bikes with some weight added (my Synapse commuter weighs just over 15Kg). This also helps when it comes to maintenance as there is not much extra to maintain over an ordinary bicycle.

The e-motion range appears to be a good compromise on price/weight/battery power also and that is a crank drive bike. Remember to take into account your drive preference. Having tried both systems, I prefer hub drive to crank drive, but this is a very personal choice and you will find everyone has their own preference.

The Wisper and Kalkhoff ranges have large capacity batteries so the weight issue is less of an issue as far as efficiency and range are concerned and they are capable of carrying heavier loads than the likes of the Cytronex Cannondales. But remember the price of replacement batteries when working on your overall budget, the amount/type of use and how long you expect the bike to last.

I have a spare ordinary wheel for my SuperSix so that it easily converts back to normal, the weight penalty is minimal with the motor wheel swapped out, all that is left on the bike is a discrete controller and a bit of cabling on show. When the electronics eventually give up the ghost, I will be left with a normal bicycle to ride unassisted, or add another kit, or sell. It's like having two bikes in one.
 
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jerrysimon

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 27, 2009
3,292
112
Cambridge, UK
I have one of these, as far as I know it is THE lightest electric bike in the world and I'm not sure how many have been produced/sold, so I'm expecting it to increase in value as the years go by :rolleyes: but if cost is your main factor then this bike will not be on your shortlist
I would say it may be the lightest full sized electric bike in the world.

I reckon a TI two spead Brompton with a Tongxin motor, 5Ah battery and Kojak tyres would at least match it weight
wise.

Brompton's own electric version is rumoured to be coming out this year.

Regards

Jerry
 
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eTim

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 19, 2009
607
2
Andover, Hants.
I would say it may be the lightest full sized electric bike in the world.

I reckon a TI two spead Brompton with a Tongxin motor, 5Ah battery and Kojak tyres would at least match it weight
wise.

Brompton's own electric version is rumoured to be coming out this year.

Regards

Jerry
Yes, I thought about adding the words 'full size' when I was writing. However, a quick google suggests that a 2 speed TI weighs in around 9.65Kg and the weight of the Cytronex kit including battery is approx 5Kg, which suggests to me that you would need to make a few more changes to a Brompton to get it down to SuperSix FULLSIZE weight. So I will continue to make my claim, for now. :D

I think Dahon have a folder that is lighter than the Brompton, currently.
 
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tangent

Esteemed Pedelecer
Mar 7, 2010
299
0
I bought my whole kit (24V/250W motor built into front wheel, 10ah li-ion battery, charger, controller, pedelec & brake levers) from BMS Battery in China for £275 including shipping. As far as I can tell it's pretty much the same thing that one pays £600 for in this country, certainly works a treat, easy to fit (like you I have no electric expertise) and only adds 7kg to the weight of the bike.
Sounds very interesting. Is this a Cute or Bafang motor? What is the drag like?
 

jerrysimon

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 27, 2009
3,292
112
Cambridge, UK
So I will continue to make my claim, for now. :D
Touché

I guess again though I have undersold the Brompton as the geometry/riding position is the same as a full sized bike, just that it also folds ;)

Now given the SuperSix cost, what do you think the chances are that it will still be there when you padlock it up outside the office, whilst I carry mine in and stow it under my desk :eek:

Have a great weekend everyone, I need to leave the office, EBrompton in hand and ride home on this glorious spring sun drenched Friday afternoon :D

Regards

Jerry
 

rh1968

Pedelecer
Oct 9, 2010
39
0
It's a Cute motor - I did order Bafang but they were out of stock and I was impatient! The drag is tolerable but noticeable - a pure guess but I'd say the effort that would take me along at 20MPH with the normal wheel in would only give me 15/16MPH with the motor wheel in. But it's not really an issue as I just feather the throttle to compensate. Totally unoticeable downhill/freewheeling.
 

tangent

Esteemed Pedelecer
Mar 7, 2010
299
0
The Cute motor sounds quite good then. I bought a Sunlova folder a while ago, based on a Bafang, and really did not like the drag. Highly noticeable when freewheeling downhill about 15mph. It felt as though the front brake was on. I sent the bike back anyway as there were other things about it that I did not like. I am currently using my refurbished Giant Lafree, which has no drag whatsoever when freewheeling because it is not based on a hub motor.
 

Oiseaux

Pedelecer
Jan 19, 2011
128
0
La roche Posay, Vienne, France
Thanks for the replies, it's all very interesting and helpful. I am still a bit confused though with the issue of drag. I wrote to one shop asking about their conversion kit with the question "When the motor is off, are they free running with no drag from the motor" their reply was "yes, no magnetic resistance and high quality bearings."
My biggest problem in my decision making is that I live in France and all the models I have tested comply with French laws which I believe I understand correctly are different to UK laws.
Still I have given myself to the end of March and then I MUST MAKE A DECISION !!
 

jbond

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jul 29, 2010
411
2
Ware, Herts
www.voidstar.com
The only real diff with the French laws is that throttle only is banned in France and legal (currently, more or less) in the UK.

There's only really three[1] styles of hub motor out there.
- Direct drive. No internal freewheel or gearing. Significant motor-off drag as it works like a generator. eg Crystalite.
- Geared. A planetary gearbox has the planet gears mounted on a freewheel. Motor-off, the planetary carrier revolves around the motor sun gear. There's additional drag due to the gears and freewheel carrier revolving. eg Bafang, Cute, BMC, Mac, Puma, Ezee. The Cute has a two stage gear where the planets are two piece and different sizes. One contacts the sun and the other contacts the ring gear. This gives them a 9:1 ish ratio instead of 4.5:1 ish which then allows a faster smaller lighter motor.
- Tongxin. Like the geared except that the planet gears are actually smooth and are a loose fit so they just fall away from the ring surface. Has the lowest drag because all that's left is a bit of grease drag between the planets and ring. However, Tongxin hubs are expensive, hard to get hold of, have some reliability issues and are low power.

As well as the design issues above, hub motors have more bearings than a conventional hub and they tend to be sealed bearings with higher drag. Typical bicycle bearings when well adjusted and lightly greased/oiled are very very low drag. The end result of all this is that the typical Bafang/Cute has noticeable drag and a spin down time of perhaps 20s compared with minutes for a conventional bicycle wheel. This drag does seem to be vary between individual hubs of the same type and does perhaps improve with use as everything wears in. It's also very deceptive as it's virtually un-noticeable at walking pace but feels like under-inflated tyres at 15mph and above.

In practice, if you use a little power all this is moot. It's only really an issue when you run the battery down and have to get home! The Bafang motors are very widely used, and are a safe choice. They're only possible downside is that people on ES trying to vastly over-volt and over-amp them stripped gears with the abuse on a batch of motors 2 years ago.

[1] The non-hub Panasonic system has a simple and more effective freewheel that does a better job than hub motors of isolating the drive from the motor. Then there's friction drives that are pure DIY at the moment, but have zero drag because the motor is completely removed from the bicycle systems when powered off.
 

eTim

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 19, 2009
607
2
Andover, Hants.
Touché

I guess again though I have undersold the Brompton as the geometry/riding position is the same as a full sized bike, just that it also folds ;)
I wasn't 'dissing' the Brompton, just commenting on weight. I would have a Brompton if I had a need for one, I keep an open mind.

Now given the SuperSix cost, what do you think the chances are that it will still be there when you padlock it up outside the office, whilst I carry mine in and stow it under my desk
I don't use the SS for commuting (I have a Synapse for that) only for leisure and I don't leave it anywhere unattended for very long, only outside the odd country pub and I live in a very low crime area. If I was to leave it at work and it was stolen, then it would have to be an inside job as I work 'behind the wire' out in the sticks with ample CCTV coverage and real security guards to help track down the perpetrator :D

Have a great weekend everyone, I need to leave the office, EBrompton in hand and ride home on this glorious spring sun drenched Friday afternoon
Lucky you, my journey home is 72 miles by car :( but remember to pick the bike that suits your own needs/wants :)
 
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Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,232
2,205
69
Sevenoaks Kent
If you require a bike SOON...then don't wait for this kit! It's late arriving and still with no uncertain date (June/July?). Best write the DaaHub off unless you are prepared to wait until later in the year.

I picked up on this late last November and was prepared to wait however late development and an uncertain delivery date has meant that I've had to move on from it.

Unless, of course, someone can provide a reaistic delivery schedule?

Good Luck.
Regards
vectra
I am delighted to let you know I spent all day yesterday in the DaaHub factory and the first units for the UK will be on sale in about six weeks.

I do apologise for the wait, however I insisted that all gremlins had been ironed out before they went onto the market.

We even have a box!

P1013325 100.jpg

All the best

David
 
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jerrysimon

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 27, 2009
3,292
112
Cambridge, UK
I wasn't 'dissing' the Brompton, just commenting on weight. I would have a Brompton if I had a need for one, I keep an open mind.
I know that don't worry.

Lucky you, my journey home is 72 miles by car :( but remember to pick the bike that suits your own needs/wants :)
Agreed, it creates variety which is the spice of life :p

Regards

Jerry
 

clv101

Pedelecer
Dec 29, 2010
35
3
Bristol
I am delighted to let you know I spent all day yesterday in the DaaHub factory and the first units for the UK will be on sale in about six weeks.

I do apologise for the wait, however I insisted that all gremlins had been ironed out before they went onto the market.

We even have a box!

View attachment 1849

All the best

David
Looking good - will the kit be sold as a bare motor, without wheel? I'd want to build the motor into my own wheel.