Fiido D2S vs Ado A16+ or something else?

[Markiz]

Hello
I need a last mile commuting ebike.
I would be making 7km a day total.
It needs to be tiny so I can take it on trains. This excludes the most populous 20" class.

My budget is very limited, <1000€.
Speed is not important, 25km/h is plenty. Cadence likewise also not,since my current bike, a folding non-electrical has slow 40T+16T cranks so for an acceptable speed of <20km/h I pedal 80 RPM anyway, and it's fine.
I do need some hill climbing capability, for 12%/~25 degree grades as I would also take this on vacations. This is the worst requirement, as it eliminates many options, as I need gears.
Throttle would be nice, even if it is illegal. On such a small and reasonably powerful bike I don't think it presents a threat and I police would not hold it against me here. Nor do I think I's get into trouble in case of an accident. At least some isolated examples I've heard of have not..

There does not appear to be too many choices from the more "reputable" but budget brands.

Fiido D2S and Ado A16+ are of acceptable specifications and price.
Fiido seems like a more reputable brand, with greater chance if being able to get parts in some years from now?
I would just buy Fiido but not sure if 35Nm coupled with 13A controller is enough for climbing 12%/25 degree grades?

Anything else?

I am in continental EU.

 

[cyclebuddy]

The Fiido D2s has been around a long time, seems reliable, spare parts plentiful.

35Nm @ 13A is the same as the 20" wheeled Fiido D11, which performs well enough on shorter hills - 10% is I think the steepest I've ridden. In a smaller 16" wheel it should be better still.

 

[matthewslack]

I wouldn't compromise your day to day commuting requirements for occasional steep hills on holidays. Your short distances every day only need a tiny battery, so you can look to smallest, lightest for that. Leisure days out are a different ball game!

 

[Markiz]

@cyclebuddy
Thanks. Good to know. I am leaning to Fiido, but Ado has a better more flexible xontroller, which would open up another usecase for me,nbriding 15mk one way, since it's slightly faster.
Also has a removable battery

@matthewslack
Well my budget is limited. Those 2 ARE the lightest ones I can reasonably get. The very lightest are much more expensive and are maybe 17kg vs 19.5 (for Fiido D2S). Being a corpulent younger male this does not represent a big difference, especially since there is no major lifting required on a daily basis.

Do you have a suggestion for another model?

 

[matthewslack]

@cyclebuddy
Thanks. Good to know. I am leaning to Fiido, but Ado has a better more flexible xontroller, which would open up another usecase for me,nbriding 15mk one way, since it's slightly faster.
Also has a removable battery

@matthewslack
Well my budget is limited. Those 2 ARE the lightest ones I can reasonably get. The very lightest are much more expensive and are maybe 17kg vs 19.5 (for Fiido D2S). Being a corpulent younger male this does not represent a big difference, especially since there is no major lifting required on a daily basis.

Do you have a suggestion for another model?

No, I was just thinking that for such a short journey you might consider an existing bike plus the very small and light Swytch kit. Probably does not make sense unless you already have a suitable bike as even with discount still not cheap.

 

[Markiz]

No, I was just thinking that for such a short journey you might consider an existing bike plus the very small and light Swytch kit. Probably does not make sense unless you already have a suitable bike as even with discount still not cheap.

That is exactly it. My current bike is a rundown beater bike, and it's too big.
Looking at new non electric folder, cheap ones seem noticeably worse then e.g. D2S (the bike parts, steel, rim brakes), so Swytch is a terrible value proposition in my case.

 

[guerney]

Can Fiido chainwheels be changed? If the Fiido's chainwheel can be swapped for a smaller one for holidays in the hills, and swapped back for commuting...

 

[cyclebuddy]

I'm surprised the D2s weighs 19.5 kg when the 20" wheel D4s is lighter - and the D11 at 17.5kg is lighter still (which I bought for my own "last mile" commuting/trains). The ADO16+ says 21kg. Eeek!

When I looked at ADO (20) before buying my own Fiido, the ADO speed/controller set-up was really, truly, horribly poor, being a very crude implementation of basic PAS speed capping on the first two settings and throttle only on the other three... despite ADO's marketing bull5hit about their advanced "G-Drive Control Technology". Fiido's isn't perfect, but is a much better implementation (that was a year ago, ADO may have changed it now to something passable/usable).

Other things to consider: A16 mudguards are a joke for commuting (D2s has proper ones), and check trolleying too (the ease/ability to push both bikes in folded form along a station platform etc... that's more important than you realise until you need to do it yourself).

 

[Markiz]

I think the front one is a common modification to lower cadence.
But, since my current bike has even worse gearing for speed, and I'm fine with it, and Fiido can't be unlocked for >25km/h, it is not useful to me.

Plus we vacation 2-3 times a year, so this would be too much work.

 

[Markiz]

I'm surprised the D2s weighs 19.5 kg when the 20" wheel D4s is lighter - and the D11 at 17.5kg is lighter still (which I bought for my own "last mile" commuting/trains). The ADO16+ says 21kg. Eeek!

Weight really is not an issue. I would not be lifting it on the overhead luggage compartments, and most trains have low floors. There are some stair, on a bridge, on my commute, but a few.

When I looked at ADO (20) before buying my own Fiido, the ADO speed/controller set-up was really, truly, horribly poor, being a very crude implementation of basic PAS speed capping on the first two settings and throttle only on the other three... despite ADO's marketing bull5hit about their advanced "G-Drive Control Technology". Fiido's isn't perfect, but is a much better implementation (that was a year ago, ADO may have changed it now to something passable/usable).

I've seen this mentioned a lot.
As of most recently, per youtube, this is ADO controller programming:
- 3 levels and 2 modes
- mode A: PAS1=15km/h PAS2=25km/h PAS3=throttle ONLY
- mode B: PAS1=15 PAS2=20 PAS3=25 (locked, but can be unlocked)
Yes, it's not very good, but.. For my additional usecases, riding up to 30km roundtrips to dentist, doctor, and my parents house, the throttle has cruise control and speed can be unlocked for a few km/h extra, which would save me few minutes compared to Fiido.

How are pass levels on Fiido? Also speed based if I am not mistaken? I seem to remember form yt that PAS3=~20-22km/h, and only throttle reached 25? This is ok for my commute, but not so good for the other usecase. It would effectively mean if I want to be reasonably quick, I'd have to use throttle only. ADO has PAS3 in pedal mode 30+, comapred to only ~22 at Fiido.

Other things to consider: A16 mudguards are a joke for commuting (D2s has proper ones)

Yes, they also look terrible, and would have to replace them when fitting a pannier rack.

and check trolleying too (the ease/ability to push both bikes in folded form along a station platform etc... that's more important than you realise until you need to do it yourself).

I would not be using this, as all. My train stations are small, with few people and small terminals. I can literally ride into train when a low-floor newer one comes.

 

[cyclebuddy]

How are pass levels on Fiido? Also speed based if I am not mistaken? I seem to remember form yt that PAS3=~20-22km/h, and only throttle reached 25? This is ok for my commute, but not so good for the other usecase. It would effectively mean if I want to be reasonably quick, I'd have to use throttle only. ADO has PAS3 in pedal mode 30+, comapred to only ~22 at Fiido.

I could be wrong here, but I'm sure I saw a YT video showing an unlocked D2 doing 30kph? The unlocked D4 achieves 34ish kph. My D11 unlocked is 29kph. Note here though - with all small wheeled e-bikes - the motor is wound as standard to spin at a much faster RPM than motors in say a 26" or 700c wheel. IMO, most don't have a lot more speed to offer beyond the statutory 25kph; the few that do have less torque (more evident in universal bikes sold across Europe and the US, where the US speed is limited at a higher 20mph/32kph).

The other consideration is that on any small-wheeled e-bike, the limited gearing means you're likely to be spinning out much above 20mph (I do on my D11, but I'm almost certainly fatter and older than you!)

On the D11 (which I know is a different motor & controller to the D2), it's a combination of torque and speed, which is nearer to how KT Torque Simulation controllers work, the (not ideal) difference being that the upper speed is also capped (which it isn't with KT). My unlocked D11 is (I'm guessing) roughly:
Level 1: Low torque to 10mph
Level 2: Middle torque to 13mph
Level 3: High/Max torque to 16mph
Thumb throttle active at any time, with or without PAS, max speed lifted up to 18mph - cruise control if held steady for a few seconds until you dab brakes or blip the throttle to cancel.

The D2 may of course be totally different - I don't know; I'd like to try one. It recently had a new display/controller upgrade, so it may indeed all be totally different.

On the ADO A20 I looked at, without torque being controlled, all you get is max power applied up to the speed limiter whatever level you choose; there's no refinement, and that makes it more difficult if, for example, you're pedalling slowly and carefully navigating around pedestrians in a town centre. You don't want to be catapulted forward at each slight turn of the pedals (as I was with the A20), you want control of the bike.

Many buying ADO, Fiido etc etc seem to mostly be newbies to the e-bike scene; there are many delighted first time owners of both makes of bike because they've never ridden a more expensive (or often any other) e-bike; it's only when you compare how power is applied on a "decent" e-bike that the limitations/irritations of these cheaper control systems become apparent. The controller implementation of the D11 was head and shoulders above an A20, although not quite as good as a proper KT.

It may not be too much of an issue for you, but 21kg is notably heavier even if you don't plan to lift or carry the bike (much). The trains I travel on also have level-boarding where I can in theory just wheel my bike straight on; the trouble is it generates a lot of evil looks from my fellow travellers if I don't fold it (it's obligatory here in the UK during peak travel times anyway)...rules in your country are obviously different it seems.

All of this is of course only my opinion and experiences formed when I too was looking to add a small-wheeled e-bike specifically for commuting. Weight definitely mattered, and once I started commuting with the bike, I was glad low bike weight was high on my list of priorities (low cost, high battery capacity, and trolleying ability being my other high priorities).

Others feel free to chime in with what they've learned commuting on trains with their folding e-bike, because you don't always appreciate all the actual difficulties/obstacles you'll encounter until after you've bought the bike and are then actually doing it!

 

[Markiz]

Buddy, that was super helpful, thanks!
Gave me a lot of points to cover.
I am not in a hurry to buy, so I'll make a list and go through it, since this is not an impulse buy for me, but a luxury unfortunately.

A colleague of mine had D2 (the one with no gears), and he told m that the throttle was also jerky there as well, can't ride slow. So maybe similar to the current Ado.
Looking at yt, current D2S with the current controller can't be unlocked and there is no cruise control. This is not make of break for me, but I'll check it out some more.
It's hard to get a clear picture, because most videos on yt are obviously promotions. Have to parse it.

My train commute is in a sparsely populated area with few passengers. There is almost always plenty of space to leave the bike. They are now in the process of replacing all of the intercity trains with modern ones all of which have designated bike places. By this time next year they say all will be replaced.

 

[cyclebuddy]

My train commute is in a sparsely populated area with few passengers. There is almost always plenty of space to leave the bike. They are now in the process of replacing all of the intercity trains with modern ones all of which have designated bike places. By this time next year they say all will be replaced.

With all that space, could you not consider a 20" wheeled folder instead? That opens your choices considerably.

Even a Fiido D4s with its 20" wheels gives a better ride, has a larger battery, weighs less, goes faster (unlocked to 34/35 kph) and only costs a little more than a D2s at about 750 euro?

 

[Markiz]

Even a Fiido D4s with its 20" wheels gives a better ride, has a larger battery, weighs less, goes faster (unlocked to 34/35 kph) and only costs a little more than a D2s at about 750 euro?

No, because then it does not fit into the trunk along with other stuff. We are a young family, so have more luggage then is normal.
My current non ebike folder is 20", same size s D4S, and unfortunately it's too big.

If my requirement was just the commute, I would have gotten a scooter.

 

[guerney]

Even though my folding bike is fantastic: climbs steep hills even while towing heavy trailers, gets me 43 or so miles range (might be less now, two years on with that [19.2Ah] battery - I haven't tested absolute range lately) with practically zero effort over mixed terrain, can be destricted, tuned quite a bit to rider's preferences, has plenty of torque, is fast and can be faster (52T chainwheel >11T, current could be raised from 15A to 20A), has mudguards and rear rack, lots of lights, hiviz safety objects etc. and weighs about (with all the extra doodads I've added) 22.6kg... sometimes I wish I had something which folds smaller, and I don't want a Brompton. Therefore I'm seriously thinking of converting a 16" wheeled Dahon Curve D3 using a 250W Bafang BBS01b kit. I could be wrong, but there appears to be room. It's pre-conversion folded dimensions are: 34 x 67 x 64cm and it weighs 11.5kg, has 2" wide tyres, three hub gears which could (I think) be changed for 8. It's a little on the slow side, but I could try changing the chainwheel to a 58T, and compensate for the reduction of hill climbing ability by setting the controller current limit to 20A. Sometimes my journeys are rather short, other times dozens of miles towing heavy round food - the Dahon Curve could be deployed for the short ones. This might actually be a crazy idea, and someone should talk me out of it. Quite honestly, I can't think of anything else with 16 inch wheels capable of doing everything on your list, but of course someone else might? A secondhand one can be about £200. Someone should deffo talk me out of doing this. Another candidate is the 16" wheeled Dahon Piccolo, which looks like my bike after it's been through a hot wash cycle - someone should talk me out of that too.... although.. that does have a reinforcement bar supporting the folding mechanism, but the downside is that rims to accomodate 2" wide tyres are proving hard to find, so far, plus it's substantially older. However, these meanderings considered - I've found workarounds for needing a second ebike thus far, and this may continue.

Folding Bikes by DAHON | Curve D3

eu.dahon.com

Paul's amazing Dahon Curve D3 commuter/tourer

Don't mess with this guy! He has a deadly Curve... Doing this trip on a 8 speed foldie is already challenging enough. Paul, who lives to ri...

lovethefold.blogspot.com

Alternative rear rack, originally for a Betto child seat:

Fitted with (narrower) front pannier bags, to avoid hitting with heels: