Following on from my introduction to this forum I have questions

[Az.]

It is other people on here who seem to think you have to spend thousands on bike - or go home.

Nah... I have an opposite impression. After all all conversion kits are about getting best value for money.

I don't like splashing cash on frivolities, so bikes that cost few k are not for me, but if somebody is very passionate and can afford that, then why not? After all it is better to spend money on super bike than on drugs/alcohol/smoking or other stupidity.

 

[AndyBike]

The picture I get from you is that you seem to want to write off cheap bikes as a waste of time. Some are, but not all. A cheap bike can be life changing for some people and without it they are stuck.

I want to point people away from cheap bikers that are unfit for purpose and force the cycling industry to adopt a basic minimum standard.

Cheap bikes that are unfit for purpose are a bad economy for people wanting to get into cycling. They have to many failures and inevitably dont get used and put people off riding.

Im about bums on saddles. I want to see the world on two wheels and out of cars for most of their journeys. I dont have a car, I dont drive,cannot drive so I ride and have done all year round for the last 30 years
Im entitled to a free bus pass, but I dont use nor have applied for i,t because I cycle.
And my experience has in that time taught me cheap bikes aren't worth buying.
I am dead against, selling cheap crap to people.

spending several thousand on an expensive bike and then hundreds per year for servicing and parts

I really have no idea where you're getting these figures from Wheezy. I decent bike is going to cost a minimum of £1k(that you can rely on)and as to 'several hundred per year on servicing', thats a joke I take it ?. Maybe per year the average punter is going to require a tweak to the drivetrain, new pads for the brakes, maybe new gear cables, all of which is going to come in at under £100

A reasonable bike, something like a Spesh sirrus, or Trek Dual sport are both at the £1k mark, and if you go to £2k(which is still £5k below your fantastical pricing) you will get a high end bike.

 

[WheezyRider]

Nah... I have an opposite impression. After all all conversion kits are about getting best value for money.

I don't like splashing cash on frivolities, so bikes that cost few k are not for me, but if somebody is very passionate and can afford that, then why not? After all it is better to spend money on super bike than on drugs/alcohol/smoking or other stupidity.

I agree, I am not against people spending a lot of money on bikes if they can afford it and it makes them happy. What I don't like is the kind of mentality that can seep in where unless you are prepared to spend a lot of money you get looked down upon.

 

[WheezyRider]

I want to point people away from cheap bikers that are unfit for purpose and force the cycling industry to adopt a basic minimum standard.

Cheap bikes that are unfit for purpose are a bad economy for people wanting to get into cycling. They have to many failures and inevitably dont get used and put people off riding.

Im about bums on saddles. I want to see the world on two wheels and out of cars for most of their journeys. I dont have a car, I dont drive,cannot drive so I ride and have done all year round for the last 30 years
Im entitled to a free bus pass, but I dont use nor have applied for i,t because I cycle.
And my experience has in that time taught me cheap bikes aren't worth buying.
I am dead against, selling cheap crap to people.

All very well, in your case. Great that you have done away with having a car. However, you say you are about bums on saddles, but then you are in effect excluding people who can't afford expensive bikes.

What is your suggestion for people who can't afford to spend more than say about £150 on a bike?

What is the absolute minimum price you think you can get away with when buying a bike?

 

[AndyBike]

What is your suggestion for people who can't afford to spend more than say about £150 on a bike?

Save up. Have a basic standard and buy 2nd hand. Oh and avoid people who tell you you can get a fit for purpose ride out the argos catalog

"What is the absolute minimum price you think you can get away with when buying a bike? "
Having spend no time looking at them I couldnt say for sure.

 

[Az.]

What is your suggestion for people who can't afford to spend more than say about £150 on a bike?

I might be crucified for saying that, but I honestly don't understand how an average person who works in UK can't afford to buy a decent bike. For somebody who has only £150 I would say: "get an extra shift or preferably two and buy a decent bike. It is money well spent. It is cheaper than car, it is cheaper than public transport, you will save fortune on prescriptions and will live longer."

What is the absolute minimum price you think you can get away with when buying a bike?

I would say £500 on DIY ebike to commute. After all you don't want to arrive at work all sweaty and stinking.

 

[WheezyRider]

Save up. Have a basic standard and buy 2nd hand. Oh and avoid people who tell you you can get a fit for purpose ride out the argos catalog

"What is the absolute minimum price you think you can get away with when buying a bike? "
Having spend no time looking at them I couldnt say for sure.

Save up? What planet are you on? Food inflation is running at up to 50% on some items. Electric and Gas prices are extortionate and mortgage interest rates are back at 6%. Renting is no better. In the meantime, wages have not kept pace at all. Saving in this country is not an option for most people these days.

Buying second hand is a good idea, but it's not always practical. It often comes down to luck as to what you can get and there is no guarantee. And, you still haven't said what you think the minimum standard is bikes should conform to.

Personally, I would not buy a bike from Argos. I want to be able to speak to someone knowledgeable about bikes who stocks things in their shop because they know they are going to get reasonable customer satisfaction and can give good advice, tailored to the person's budget (I would also go to several shops to ensure I don't get pushed in the wrong direction by pushy sales staff, with their own pre conceived ideas). However, I would not look down my nose at someone who bought a bike from Argos. They do have a good returns policy, so even though you can't get good advice etc, you can always take it back if you are not happy.

Say you bought an Argos bike for £120 to £150. You live in Zone 4. Even if you used the bike for just a month, you still save money relative to a monthly travel card:


If you were unscrupulous, you could take the bike back after a month and get your money back, but I wouldn't recommend that kind of behaviour

Say the bike lasted a year, that would then give the chance perhaps to save up for a decent bike. But as I have said, for a relatively small amount in the second year, your could upgrade the crappy parts and keep the cheap bike.

 

[saneagle]

Cheap bikes that are unfit for purpose are a bad economy for people wanting to get into cycling.

I don't think that many would disagree with that.

They have to many failures and inevitably dont get used and put people off riding.

I've been in the game a long time, and I don't seem to know about these failures you mentioned. There have been several expensive bikes that had to be recalled due to failures. There was the long saga of the Kalkhoff Impulse bikes that needed three new motors before the warranty ran out, and quite a few expensive bikes with Brose motors that stopped suddenly, and the Bosch water ingress problems. Can you please provide specific examples of the failures on cheap bikes that you're talking about.

 

[AndyBike]

Save up? What planet are you on?

You are aware people buy houses and cars and very very expensive things every day, or is your argument now aligning with anyone on a minimum budget.

Clearly someone who can afford thousand pound freezers must be rolling in cash, or is low end bikes for the little people as you clearly see them ?
Im not on a big income, I saved up for my bike, I also sold spare stuff on ebay. I had a goal and I achieved it.
I can't see how or why anyone else cant achieve the same.

Soon as anyone presents facts to you, you go off at a tangent and bring utter nonsense into the equation. Now you're wittering on about the price of travel cards.

 

[AndyBike]

Really. Scrap yards are full of cheap tat, journalists has written countless stories about bikes unfit for purpose, we even coined the term BSO. But you are unaware of these facts.

There have been several expensive bikes that had to be recalled due to failures.

Feel free to name them.

There was the long saga of the Kalkhoff Impulse bikes that needed three new motors before the warranty ran out, and quite a few expensive bikes with Brose motors that stopped suddenly, and the Bosch water ingress problems.

There was the long saga of the Kalkhoff Impulse bikes that needed three new motors before the warranty ran out

You mean the ones from 2016. You need to go way way back to 2016 to get a single example. Hells Bells, you're winning the argument for me if you need to delve back 7 years
Ermmm. Im on a few Ebike forums, mainly people riding the £4,5-10k bikes, oddly enough our threads arent full of these expensive bikes breaking down, most are about people having a good old time.

Can you please provide specific examples of the failures on cheap bikes that you're talking about.

No problem. Just click 'What's new' on the top of this page and you'll find post after post and thread after thread of people asking members here how to fix their broken motor/battery/controller.
99.9% relating to cheap or Chinese import or hub driven motor type. All cheap components falling apart. We must average a couple a day of people asking how to fix their fallen steed.

Or did you miss these posts ?

Heres the latest ones.

Assist not kicking in

Hi I have a claud butler glide2, today both the automatic assis and the manual throttle have stopped working, the battery is full and the display is working, where do we start to look for the problem? TIA

www.pedelecs.co.uk

Or how about

eBike Rear Hub - Clicking Noise

My rear hub has stated to make a kind of random clicking noise, I've not been able to identify where it's coming from yet and am a little concerned and want to understand what it is and fix it before taking bike out again. You can hear it in first few secs of this video, anyone any ideas...

www.pedelecs.co.uk

Oh look, motor issue, but strangely not a mid drive . ye gads, how can that be....

36V Powabyke. Help required please with motor issue.

Got a reply from saneagle a couple of days ago in the welcome section ( see copy attached ) Been checking over the Powabyke ( photo attached ) that I recently obtained. Checked the batteries and battery box, all ok. Got three full bars of power illuminating when I turn the throttle key on...

www.pedelecs.co.uk

And these are just from this weekend.

 

[soundwave]

should get a few cans of special brew in there says it can last 130 mins on fire nearly broke the car getting it home 100kg+

 

[Woosh]

And these are just from this weekend.

The Claud Butler has has a throttle and no LCD, may have a brake sensor needing repair.
The direct drive rear hub may have a damaged freehub pawl.
The Powabyke also has a throttle and no LCD, may have a brake sensor needing repair.
Those faults occured after years of use, bikes are out of warranty or did not have a warranty in the first place, and faults not related to the mechanical bikes nor their original cost though.
Spares for them are not impossible to find nor expensive.

 

[Az.]

What I don't like is the kind of mentality that can seep in where unless you are prepared to spend a lot of money you get looked down upon.

Who cares what other people think?

Say you bought an Argos bike for £120 to £150. You live in Zone 4. Even if you used the bike for just a month, you still save money relative to a monthly travel card:

I bought a 20" bike from Argos few years ago for my daughter. Paid around £180 if I remember well. Something like that:

https://www.argos.co.uk/product/7869976?clickSR=slp:term:bike:18:207:1

What an awful bike it is... now it stands sad at the back of the garden next to composterium and waiting for me to put it on fleebay or donate to somebody. I still feel guilty for buying it. I only can imagine what full size £120 bike looks like. Brrrrr

 

[saneagle]

Really. Scrap yards are full of cheap tat, journalists has written countless stories about bikes unfit for purpose, we even coined the term BSO. But you are unaware of these facts.

Feel free to name them.


You mean the ones from 2016. You need to go way way back to 2016 to get a single example. Hells Bells, you're winning the argument for me if you need to delve back 7 years
Ermmm. Im on a few Ebike forums, mainly people riding the £4,5-10k bikes, oddly enough our threads arent full of these expensive bikes breaking down, most are about people having a good old time.

No problem. Just click 'What's new' on the top of this page and you'll find post after post and thread after thread of people asking members here how to fix their broken motor/battery/controller.
99.9% relating to cheap or Chinese import or hub driven motor type. All cheap components falling apart. We must average a couple a day of people asking how to fix their fallen steed.

Or did you miss these posts ?

Heres the latest ones.

Assist not kicking in

Hi I have a claud butler glide2, today both the automatic assis and the manual throttle have stopped working, the battery is full and the display is working, where do we start to look for the problem? TIA

www.pedelecs.co.uk

Or how about

eBike Rear Hub - Clicking Noise

My rear hub has stated to make a kind of random clicking noise, I've not been able to identify where it's coming from yet and am a little concerned and want to understand what it is and fix it before taking bike out again. You can hear it in first few secs of this video, anyone any ideas...

www.pedelecs.co.uk

Oh look, motor issue, but strangely not a mid drive . ye gads, how can that be....

36V Powabyke. Help required please with motor issue.

Got a reply from saneagle a couple of days ago in the welcome section ( see copy attached ) Been checking over the Powabyke ( photo attached ) that I recently obtained. Checked the batteries and battery box, all ok. Got three full bars of power illuminating when I turn the throttle key on...

www.pedelecs.co.uk

And these are just from this weekend.

Every electric bike gets problems, like the guy today with the spongy brakes on an R & M and the guy two days ago, who's Bosch display needed replacing. That doesn't mean anything other than confirming my over 2 years experience years being an ebike mechanic in a large ebike shop that the sort of problems you mention are more or less equal across all brands. What I'm talking about is systematic failures where anybody buying a particular bike can expect a failure, which are thankfully not that common, but have been mainly on relatively expensive bikes, which I mentioned in my previous post.

Off the top of my head, there have been two recalls in the last year. One was very expensive Bromptons. The other was Ancheer, a relatively small brand of Chinese bikes sold on Amazon and Ebay. In 2021 R&m did a recall and so did Cannondale. Haibike did a big recall in 2017.

Take your blinkers off and see things how they are, not how you want to see them.

 

[WheezyRider]

Who cares what other people think?



I bought a 20" bike from Argos few years ago for my daughter. Paid around £180 if I remember well. Something like that:

https://www.argos.co.uk/product/7869976?clickSR=slp:term:bike:18:207:1

What an awful bike it is... now it stands sad at the back of the garden next to composterium and waiting for me to put it on fleebay or donate to somebody. I still feel guilty for buying it. I only can imagine what full size £120 bike looks like. Brrrrr

Depends how thick your skin is. But on a forum dedicated to inclusivity it is not helpful to have people looking down at others who have to live according to their circumstances.

That bike is dual suspension. Like I said, avoid! I feel your pain

But there are cheaper but decent bikes out there that will last. I have bought several bikes for kids over the years in the £100 to £130 range and they have lasted many years with minimal maintenance. It is an important category, as most people can't spend £1000 on bikes for kids when they will likely not be treated well, have a high risk of being stolen and in a few years they grow out of them.

 

[lenny]

Clearly someone who can afford thousand pound freezers must be rolling in cash, or is low end bikes for the little people as you clearly see them ?
Im not on a big income, I saved up for my bike, I also sold spare stuff on ebay. I had a goal and I achieved it.
I can't see how or why anyone else cant achieve the same.

you ride on pavements

As to riding on the pavement, i do that mostly.

 

[Az.]

Depends how thick your skin is. But on a forum dedicated to inclusivity it is not helpful to have people looking down at others who have to live according to their circumstances.

I have a very average skin thickness I guess. I just cycle around blissfully unaware somebody might be looking down at me.

That bike is dual suspension. Like I said, avoid! I feel your pain

Actually suspension works better than I expected. I bought it during big covid/brexit bike famine and sold it to my daughter as "best bike money can buy". She believed me (bless her) and we got few years of fun out of it. Bike served its purpose.

as most people can't spend £1000 on bikes for kids when they will likely not be treated well, have a high risk of being stolen and in a few years they grow out of them.

On average I spend around £500 per bike for my kids (have three). It is a lot for me, but I think it is money well spent.
I make my kids to look well after their bikes and all of them are in pristine condition. None of our bikes were stolen so far (touch wood).

 

[saneagle]

View attachment 52557

should get a few cans of special brew in there says it can last 130 mins on fire nearly broke the car getting it home 100kg+

Did you hear the story about the empty cupboard?




It turned out that there was nothing in it.

 

[Az.]

View attachment 52557

should get a few cans of special brew in there says it can last 130 mins on fire nearly broke the car getting it home 100kg+

Great to keep battery in. Just be careful when you open it.

I have an impression you don't have a wife yet. If I bought something like that I would be living in the shed together with this safe.

 

[WheezyRider]

You are aware people buy houses and cars and very very expensive things every day, or is your argument now aligning with anyone on a minimum budget.

Clearly someone who can afford thousand pound freezers must be rolling in cash, or is low end bikes for the little people as you clearly see them ?
Im not on a big income, I saved up for my bike, I also sold spare stuff on ebay. I had a goal and I achieved it.
I can't see how or why anyone else cant achieve the same.

Soon as anyone presents facts to you, you go off at a tangent and bring utter nonsense into the equation. Now you're wittering on about the price of travel cards.

To me it seems that you can't imagine how people not in your situation live.

There are rich people, there are desperately poor people and there is a big spectrum in between, although the numbers at the poorer end far outweigh the numbers at the richer end. Plus, in the current climate, the standard of living is dropping rapidly. These days I am doing ok, but there have been times in my life where I have lived hand to mouth and it's not quickly forgotten and I am also not blind to the hardship other people around me have to face. I could afford to splash out on an expensive bike, but I choose not to. I find it too hard to justify, when it really isn't necessary. Plus there are other added downsides, such as risk of theft/mugging etc, or being locked into a proprietary system.

I know of a number of kids just in my neighbourhood who go to school with an empty stomach most days because their parents can't afford to put food on the table. These kids will probably suffer educationally and may well end up mugging people like you with their expensive bikes, as crime will be one of the limited options open to them. Spending less on your bike and donating what you would have spent to your local food bank might be a better investment towards your own wellbeing.

You say you are presenting facts, but I see little more than your own prejudices presenting things as fact, probably to give you comfort about the decisions you have made. Perhaps look up confirmational bias to get some insight into your own thinking?

You were able to save up for your bike (which I assume was prior to the current economic situation?) and you sold some things on eBay. That's great, but your circumstances etc are not directly translatable to everyone out there. Many people are not in a position to save money, they are really struggling.

I mention the cost of public transport as it relates directly to the reason a lot of people choose to cycle or would like to get into cycling. For most, cycling is not a hobby activity, it is a utility activity. Getting to work is the number one reason. A large number of people can't afford a car, or it's just impractical. So they rely on public transport, which is in a poor state and is often inconvenient. I also use this metric to demonstrate to you that even if someone spent £150 on a bike and it only lasted a month, it would still be cheaper than the alternative. I didn't even start on the costs associated with running a car.

I am trying in my posts to help you to see that while your opinions work for you in your particular situation, they are not appropriate for everyone. Also, while there are junk cheap bikes out there, you cannot write them all off as worthless. Some are actually quite good and will serve the purpose that is required of them.

Ok, so let's try to get an understanding of your position:

1) You have to spend over £1000 to get a vaguely decent bike and around £2000 for an e-bike.

2) It should be against the law to sell any bike cheaper than this.

3) All e-bikes should be mid drives, nothing else allowed.

4) Anyone who has bought a £100 bike has made a foolish decision.

Is that what you are saying? Does that summarise your argument?