future e-bikes

BLACKPANTHER · Mar 5, 2011

funkylyn said:
How do others, more in the know than I , think the future of e-bikes is going ?
can you see more power being allowed anytime soon or is that a no no ?
Or more bikes available with the 'off road' function ?

Whats the latest battery news are there any significant developements about to be released ?

I ask, as being about to decide which new bike to get, i wouldnt want to commit and then find a, for example, fantastically new and more powerful battery, suddenly appearing

The decision of which bike to buy is difficult as it is.
Is there anything like the aurora with its 'slightly' illegal motor available in a step thru model ??
Any comments and help greatfully received

Legal bikes will not become more powerful. In fact regulations will be enforced more tightly and future bikes will be less powerful. Ranges should increase by a large margin though......but at a cost. I wouldn't worry about waiting for the next big thing though. You always pay through the nose for 'the next big thing'! If you want an 'off-road' step thru, why not buy a step thru and convert it with one of the off-road kits?

EdBike · Mar 5, 2011

Batteries - some of the newer batteries are giving fantastic ranges of 50 miles+ which is plenty. I've read about the possibilities of new lithium-sulphur batteries (read they're coming on Wisper's soon - don't quote me on that) which would lead to a huge increase in potential range. Could have a big effect on the viability of electric cars at last...

A few links of interest

Lithium sulfur battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Solar plane makes record flight (li-s powered plane)
Stanford Develops New Lithium-Sulfur Battery | Electric Cars Report

tillson · Mar 5, 2011

Taking an ebike as a whole, I would say that the battery lags behind the rest of the bike by a considerable margin. The battery is definitely the weakest link in the system, so I would expect to see the biggest investment in this area. I have no idea of time scale though.

The bike minus battery is a pretty simple device, some pipes bent and welded to form a couple if triangles, a couple of wheels, a set if brakes, a low power motor etc. All tried, tested and well developed stuff.

Nothing new has come along that makes me want to trade in my 30 month old Kalkhoff bike for a new and fabulously expensive model. Now, if a battery came along which delivered a significant improvement, I may be tempted.

flecc · Mar 5, 2011

I second what Blackpanther has said about regulation, the EU type of law is spreading and there's little chance of the future holding prospects of anything more lax.

Germany and Switzerland both have high speed e-bike classes, and a higher power 500 watt class in Germany's case, but they carry additional legal requirements and restrictions like registration plates, insurance, helmets etc. No other countries show the slightest enthusiasm to follow their examples.

There are companies who can produce e-bikes to spec, including powerful ones. Kinetics for example can build anything using the Heinzmann motors in a variety of powers to choice, even making a custom frame for you if necessary, though their options are expensive.

Team Hybrid also market the Heinzmann motor system, but have the new Falco motor in a variety of powerful forms to suit any performance needs. I think they could customise a step through for you.

As to the future, Heinzmann now have a new brushless motor in addition to their venerable brushed model, but we've yet to see it in the UK and I doubt it will come in high power versions like the brushed model.

Having watched the snails pace development of rechargeable batteries for over 60 years now, I can confidently predict no big leap through. Each "advance" has been much less promising than initially claimed and has often been accompanied by disadvantages or premature failures. The fact that in the 21st century the world's vehicles still start with the 19th century technology of lead-acid batteries tells you all you need to know about the rate of genuine progress! If the giant motor industry can't achieve better, no-one else is likely to.

So e-bike batteries are likely to remain lithium variants for a long time yet, the main advances being some slow progress in achieving longer life than the present two to three years which is the major disadvantage. I don't think longer range is needed, not many people want to cycle non-stop for more than two hours, which is usually less than 30 miles with a legal bike, easily achievable on many e-bikes now.
.

Wisper Bikes · Mar 5, 2011

Great question!

Yes it is true we are exploring Lithium Sulphur cells which are already being manufactured in lab conditions in the UK. We will have to opportunity to test them in Q3 2011 however I don't expect they will be ready for commercial use for another couple of years. The manufacturers are predicting 4 x power density over Li Po meaning our current battery box would be capable of storing 2kwh which as Ed has pointed out is not necessary on a 250W motored 23kg bicycle as not many people need 200 miles plus range. They are also predicting the cost of such a battery be about the same per kwh making a 2kw version of the Wisper pack about £2000!! The fly in the ointment is the miserly 350 cycles these batteries are currently producing.

I am writing from Shanghai where I have just spent a week signing off new models and visiting Li Po producers. We have been told about the possibility of super lithium carbon and lithium oxygen batteries that will be cheaper and lighter but without exception battery manufacturers are saying the best batteries for electric bikes for the foreseeable future are exactly what is being used at the moment Lithium Polymer Manganese. There are some exciting developments happening within this technology and I have been informed that over the next few months we will see Li Po batteries that will have double the cycle lives of of existing batteries but these will be expensive, let's wait and see!

Regarding motor power, 250W is not likely to change and although there are moves to agree a 350W version under consideration we are not expecting to be able to use these more powerful motors any time soon! The main step forward in hub drive motors is the ability to expand the efficiency curve in some modern motors which will increase range and extend the power "sweet spot".

Regarding the use of ilegal motors, I have been reliably informed a bit of a crack down is coming and bikes not certified to EN15194 may well be outlawed. I am concerned enough to have spent tens of thousands of pounds with SGS having all ten Wisper models certified. I must admit that there is the temptation to put our 350W bikes available in US and Canada on the UK market as they are more powerful and no more expensive than our 250W models, however we have decided to work with our motor manufacturer to wring as much efficiency out of 250W as possible.

My advice would be to go for the best legal bike to suit your needs now and if there is a massive break through over the next few years upgrade. Most manufactures will make any new tech available to work with existing models.

All the best

David

fishingpaul · Mar 5, 2011

Although the actuall rise in performance from bikes and batteries has been very slow,the prices are climbing very steadilly upwards,i always thought as electric bikes became more popular, the prices of bikes and batteries would fall considerablly,especially lithium batteries which i would expect to be expensive to start with as it was new technology, we are a few years in now so production costs should be falling,but prices just seem to keep rising.

Wisper Bikes · Mar 5, 2011

Battery prices are gradually falling for existing tech, however if we want to be at the cutting edge we have to pay the price.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news regarding costs, component prices have just risen by about 5% so unfortunately bikes will more expensive in the near future.

All the best

David

EdBike · Mar 5, 2011

Wisper Bikes said:
Great question!

Yes it is true we are exploring Lithium Sulphur cells which are already being manufactured in lab conditions in the UK. We will have to opportunity to test them in Q3 2011 however I don't expect they will be ready for commercial use for another couple of years. The manufacturers are predicting 4 x power density over Li Po meaning our current battery box would be capable of storing 2kwh which as Ed has pointed out is not necessary on a 250W motored 23kg bicycle as not many people need 200 miles plus range. They are also predicting the cost of such a battery be about the same per kwh making a 2kw version of the Wisper pack about £2000!! The fly in the ointment is the miserly 350 cycles these batteries are currently producing.

I am writing from Shanghai where I have just spent a week signing off new models and visiting Li Po producers. We have been told about the possibility of super lithium carbon and lithium oxygen batteries that will be cheaper and lighter but without exception battery manufacturers are saying the best batteries for electric bikes for the foreseeable future are exactly what is being used at the moment Lithium Polymer Manganese. There are some exciting developments happening within this technology and over the next few months we will see Li Po batteries that will have double the cycle lives of of existing batteries but these will be expensive.

Regarding motor power, 250W is not likely to change and although there are moves to agree a 350W version under consideration we are not expecting to be able to use these more powerful motors any time soon! The main step forward in hub drive motors is the ability to expand the efficiency curve in some modern motors which will increase range and extend the power "sweet spot".

Regarding the use of ilegal motors, I have been reliably informed a bit of a crack down is coming and bikes not certified to EN15194 may well be outlawed. I am concerned enough to have spent tens of thousands of pounds with SGS having all ten Wisper models certified. I must admit that there is the temptation to put our 350W bikes available in US and Canada on the UK market as they are more powerful and no more expensive than our 250W models, however we have decided to work with our motor manufacturer to wring as much efficiency out of 250W as possible.

My advice would be to go for the best legal bike to suit your needs now and if there is a massive break through over the next few years upgrade. Most manufactures will make any new tech available to work with existing models.

All the best

David

Well there's your answer. Straight from our man on the inside in China...

Regarding battery chemistry, its great geeking out on what actually fizzes and pops in there (Battery information from Battery University) but what I find interesting is where this technology and research all comes from.

Defence, Formula 1 and that sort of thing where money is abundant helps keep technology advancing with planes and cars - with electric bikes, particularly batteries, there's the R&D from mobile phones and laptops pushing it forward.

I'm sat here writing this on a MacBook Pro. It has an incredible battery life of some 10 hours with no problems at all. Why can this do 10 hours and competing laptops not? I remember watching in one of the promotional videos about how Apple does batteries.

Just like you're AA battery, each cell seems to be wrapped up in some kind of cylindrical container and then put side by side with other cylinders. In the same way as cans of coke or whatever have lots of wasted space (area of a circle inside a square etc.), so do batteries (so Apple says) in traditional laptops.

What Apple say they do differently, is create a series of cuboid cells and pack them flatter, but filling the space entirely. That's why (generally) the 2008 mobile apple products tend to have somewhat awesome battery life. And yet they're playing the same lithium-polymer game as everyone else...

I may be talking a load of nonsense, but maybe some electrochemists will enlighten me?

This will have to do for now: Apple (United Kingdom) - Batteries

Wisper Bikes · Mar 5, 2011

Hi Ed

Lithium Polymer cells are packed the same way, they are made up of 10 x 3.7V cuboid units that are placed one on top of the other rather like a pack of cards.

All the best

David

EdBike · Mar 5, 2011

Wisper Bikes said:
Hi Ed

Lithium Polymer cells are packed the same way, they are made up of 10 x 3.7V cuboid units that are placed one on top of the other rather like a pack of cards.

All the best

David

Steve Jobs lied to me...?!?

Life is not going to be the same....

FYI: David, take a look at the homepage of ElectricBikesExperts. Got a few smiling faces you might recognise

Wisper Bikes · Mar 5, 2011

What a motley crew!

I must get my beard trimmed!!!

All the best

David

flecc · Mar 6, 2011

funkylyn said:
I just find it very disappointing that no one seems able to produce a better battery to keep up with demand. You would think these days that it shouldnt be beyond the realms of possibilities.....I suppose just not enough bikes at the moment ?

It's not demand from the e-bike producers that matters, the motor industry has been working for years to achieve viable long life rechargeable batteries for future electric vehicles including cars. The results are still disappointing and e-car launches have been put off year after year, though they've finally reached a point where some are being tentatively launched at huge prices to cover the certainty of battery problems. Some models will only be leased for four years because of that.

The key problem is that electricity cannot readily be viably storedin large quantities for later use, so what we have to do is convert it into a chemical form in a battery. Then to use electricity we have to convert back from the chemical form. All energy conversion is inefficient, losing energy.

As I've often pointed out in here, rechargeable batteries that last for ten years and stand some 3600 daily charges throughout that time exist already. They are the ones we already use!

Yes, really. The TV and GPS satellites we've launched over previous decades often have perfectly ordinary NiMh or lithium batteries which then supply the satellite through the daily dark phase when out of sight of the sun, recharging each day when the sun is back in view, and they do this for 10 years until renewal.

The secret is that they are not stressed. Only one seventh of the charge is used each day, the charge and discharge rates are moderate, and they are not charged beyond about 80% of capacity.

The problem with e-bikes is that they cannot carry large enough batteries, so we use ones small and light enough to be carried and then stress them beyond reason to get enough power out of the little boxes. We take the power out at a very high rate and drain the cells well down, then charge them right up to very nearly full, both ends of the charge causing considerable chemical stress. Just like humans who "burn the candle at both ends" too much, sooner than later they get terminally ill.

Ultimately there is only so much electrical energy which can be contained in small spaces using chemical conversion, so the future may be in energy production instead of energy storage in a battery, for example using fuel cells in vehicles.
.

fishingpaul · Mar 6, 2011

Wisper Bikes said:
Battery prices are gradually falling for existing tech, however if we want to be at the cutting edge we have to pay the price.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news regarding costs, component prices have just risen by about 5% so unfortunately bikes will more expensive in the near future.

All the best

David

Your 14ah batteries are existing tech how are prices falling,they have gone up from £515 to £540 at one of your dealers, since i last looked a few months ago.

future e-bikes

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