Hello

[JohnWils]

Hi We have been strapping our bikes to the caravan to enhance our experience of touring mainly around southern France. Alas the heat has got the better of us in our late 60's so we have decided to get some assistance from technology. We are constrained by our pensions so we are keeping the old bikes and fitting mid drive motors to get around the varying terrain up to about 10 miles per day. We find the laws surrounding these add ons quite hilarious and ridiculous both here in the UK and for Europe. As two responsible adults we ask "why" to the powers that be. 1. Why not just restrict the speed but allow the largest motor that can be fitted or afforded. 2. Why impose a weight limit on the bike when an 18 stone person can ride a bike.
3. Why insist that the pedals must be used to operate the motor in Europe and not in the UK. Equally why a throttle is not allowed in Europe and is allowed in the UK - surely some head banging is called for.

 

[peerjay56]

Hi We have been strapping our bikes to the caravan to enhance our experience of touring mainly around southern France. Alas the heat has got the better of us in our late 60's so we have decided to get some assistance from technology. We are constrained by our pensions so we are keeping the old bikes and fitting mid drive motors to get around the varying terrain up to about 10 miles per day. We find the laws surrounding these add ons quite hilarious and ridiculous both here in the UK and for Europe. As two responsible adults we ask "why" to the powers that be. 1. Why not just restrict the speed but allow the largest motor that can be fitted or afforded. 2. Why impose a weight limit on the bike when an 18 stone person can ride a bike.
3. Why insist that the pedals must be used to operate the motor in Europe and not in the UK. Equally why a throttle is not allowed in Europe and is allowed in the UK - surely some head banging is called for.

Welcome to the vagaries of e-biking
It would be of interest to many on here if you gave some information on what mid drive option you've gone for, and how you get on with them. Maybe a new thread?

 

[filsgreen]

Hi John, welcome to the forum. I'm sure someone with more expertise than me will be along shortly to explain the rules.

Phil

 

[flecc]

Hi John, an explanation of the laws:

The fundamental has always been that with untested, unlicenced and untraceable riders, in the interests of public safety, e-bikes must remain bicycles.

In the UK, the original 1983 EAPC law restricted e-bikes to 200 watts assist and 12 mph assist speed, but that speed was later amended to 15 mph to more closely match the EU 25 kph limit, but accompanied by a UK lower age limit of 14 years. The 200 watts was considered to be a match for what a rider could input, and that is in fact the average for a fit person over more than an hour duration. Throttle control was allowed by default since there was no mention of how power should be controlled.

The EU view was that the power should be 250 watts with a 25 kph limit, but to keep them as close to being bicycles as possible, the power application should be through the pedals just as it is on normal bikes. A further EU ruling is that the power should phase down as it approaches 25 kph, but the degree and steepness of the phase down is left to the designer. The EU sensibly has no lower age limit.

In both cases the assist speed is that considered to be the upper end of utility cycling and it's not intended to match the sport riding speeds of 20 mph or more, on the basis that sport riders don't need assistance. The weight limits are mainly to restrict the mass that could impact on anyone in a collision, there being a big difference between the hard mass of a vehicle and the soft mass of someone's body. There is a factor of control where weight is concerned, riders being untested for competence.

Similar conclusions have been reached elsewhere, the Japanese have 25kph and 250 watts, but their power phase down is specified from a very early stage equal to 9.4 mph and it's effect is quite severe. In China the assist speed limit is 12 mph but they are generous with power at 700 watts. You'll gather they don't like pedalling, even uphill.

Currently the UK law is under review and will be replaced at a future date, targeted for 2016, and will then more closely match the EU regulations. No decision has been made yet on retention of throttles, but the DfT has said that existing e-bikes will not be affected by any change.

Overall it's easy to find fault with the laws, but it should be remembered that anyone untested and untraceable can legally ride an e-bike no matter how incompetent physically or mentally, the only powered vehicle without any such restriction. Therefore for public safety reasons, the bar should be set low.

 

[JohnWils]

Hi Guys Thanks you for the welcome and useful comments from all.

 

[JohnWils]

Hi John, an explanation of the laws:

The fundamental has always been that with untested, unlicenced and untraceable riders, in the interests of public safety, e-bikes must remain bicycles.

In the UK, the original 1983 EAPC law restricted e-bikes to 200 watts assist and 12 mph assist speed, but that speed was later amended to 15 mph to more closely match the EU 25 kph limit, but accompanied by a UK lower age limit of 14 years. The 200 watts was considered to be a match for what a rider could input, and that is in fact the average for a fit person over more than an hour duration. Throttle control was allowed by default since there was no mention of how power should be controlled.

The EU view was that the power should be 250 watts with a 25 kph limit, but to keep them as close to being bicycles as possible, the power application should be through the pedals just as it is on normal bikes. A further EU ruling is that the power should phase down as it approaches 25 kph, but the degree and steepness of the phase down is left to the designer. The EU sensibly has no lower age limit.

In both cases the assist speed is that considered to be the upper end of utility cycling and it's not intended to match the sport riding speeds of 20 mph or more, on the basis that sport riders don't need assistance. The weight limits are mainly to restrict the mass that could impact on anyone in a collision, there being a big difference between the hard mass of a vehicle and the soft mass of someone's body. There is a factor of control where weight is concerned, riders being untested for competence.

Similar conclusions have been reached elsewhere, the Japanese have 25kph and 250 watts, but their power phase down is specified from a very early stage equal to 9.4 mph and it's effect is quite severe. In China the assist speed limit is 12 mph but they are generous with power at 700 watts. You'll gather they don't like pedalling, even uphill.

Currently the UK law is under review and will be replaced at a future date, targeted for 2016, and will then more closely match the EU regulations. No decision has been made yet on retention of throttles, but the DfT has said that existing e-bikes will not be affected by any change.

Overall it's easy to find fault with the laws, but it should be remembered that anyone untested and untraceable can legally ride an e-bike no matter how incompetent physically or mentally, the only powered vehicle without any such restriction. Therefore for public safety reasons, the bar should be set low.

 

[JohnWils]

Hi Flecc
Thanks for the clarification I have no doubt that someone put a great deal of thought into drawing up the rules and non would ever be just right for everyone. To put another more realistic slant on the thinking behind the current laws the powers that be should be more tuned into the realities.
The fact is that most humans learn to ride a bike from a very early age and are more competent and agile on one than any of us. They even have more knowledge of the technology than most of us old wrinklies, with the usual exceptions. Ok - so the mental state applied to 14 years of age is fair enough. The speed limit of 15.5 mph is more than acceptable to align it with human power and public safety. The weight limit is by and large ambiguous on the machine since the all up mass of the vehicle is just as important with regard to stopping and control. The size of the motor is a nonsense since the use of assistance is to apply when climbing hills or against a wind and this is and always will be a challenge for engineers when it comes to the power source - computers and technology can easily control the vehicle speed and motor output not to mention the laser speed traps. How long did we have to wait to remove the need for a man to walk in front of a vehicle with a red flag.

 

[flecc]

I fully agree about the power limit John, I don't think there should be any since it's properly a matter for the vehicle designer, not the legislator. Just the assist speed limit is more than adequate for control.

Interestingly a year ago the EU parliament was recommending removal of the power limit, but faced with opposition from the European Commission who have the last say, they dropped the proposal. Our DfT are implacably opposed to any power increase, unsurprising in over-regulated Britain.

 

[JohnWils]

Welcome to the vagaries of e-biking
It would be of interest to many on here if you gave some information on what mid drive option you've gone for, and how you get on with them. Maybe a new thread?

Hi
As a retired engineer I have always held the belief that bikes could lead the way on personal local transport and when I was knee high to a grasshopper I remember seeing small motors stuck on the back wheel with a rubber roller driving the back wheel - noisy and smelly then but none the less interesting. I think the Hub motors are /were the best interim and clearly needed the advent of small lightweight batteries. However, I had been working on a form of mid drive years ago but had not funds to develop anything. I have now found what I believe to be the ultimate in mid drive units made by Bafang. If the engineering quality stands up then the
unit is set to revolutionize this sector. I am waiting for one to arrive. I like the derailleur but it is not a best fit for power drive so I'm looking at the variable options - but expensive. I'll write again when I get it all together.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I wouldn't worry too much about the power limit. It's not sufficiently tied down at the moment, which leaves the door open for manufacturers to use as much power as they want. Only the speed and weight are unambiguous.

 

[JohnWils]

If you only knew the problems I've had to fit a bike rack on our van you would understand why I feel so disheartened with the bureaucrats. They imposed unrealistic nose weights on the tow bar so I had to fit the rack to the caravan rear - the worsted option, thankfully the towing vehicle is happy with the displacement. I don't take chances with vehicle loading's and thankfully I know what I'm doing unlike the law makers.