Hi from Hilly Malvern

[Yannu]

Hi all,
I'm on the verge of buying a pedelec - my requirement is to be able to tow one or two small children in a trailer up the foothills of the Malverns (to school). Also to be able to tow a single child on a trailerbike. I'm not a particularly fast or strong cyclist but have always cycled. I can get myself up the routes I need to travel- creeping up just above walking pace so pulling someone else needs some assistance
I really fancied a Kalkhoff Image B27 (BionX) but then read online that it would have trouble doing hill starts and gave no assist below 5-6mph so that rather put me off.
Am now wavering between two E-motion panasonic crank driven bikes - the City 700+ and the Offroad 650. Heart says the offroad, head says the City.
Aargh.
Would welcome any insights....or should I post a separate question elsewhere?
All the best
y

ps by foothills I mean e.g. the 2 mile 1 in 10 and a couple of shorter steeper stretches up to school

 

[jpyouknow]

have a look at this company i saw them at the nec bike show they have been in the forfront of e bikes for 10 years they will have a bike for you Powered and Electric Bikes Largest Range In UK i was inpressed with there knowlage and service

 

[Tim]

I really fancied a Kalkhoff Image B27 (BionX) but then read online that it would have trouble doing hill starts and gave no assist below 5-6mph so that rather put me off.

Hi, that isn't true of the Kalkhoff Image B27, I just tried our demo model on the hill outside and the assistance came on immediately and very strongly. Still one to consider, I think!

Of all of the Kalkhoff bikes it's the one that gets up to speed fastest. A 1:10 hill will be demolished by it.

We don't think much of the BH Emotion bikes - though they use the Panasonic system they don't offer the larger battery capacity and tend to ride a bit hard, with equipment levels that fall below that offered as standard across the Kalkhoff range.

 

[Yannu]

thanks

have a look at this company i saw them at the nec bike show they have been in the forfront of e bikes for 10 years they will have a bike for you Powered and Electric Bikes Largest Range In UK i was inpressed with there knowlage and service

Thanks for that. May drop them a line, although at first glance most of their likely candidates seem to have rack mounted batteries. That's no good for me as I have a dedicated rack for the trailerbike that I also want to tow

 

[JuicyBike]

Hi Yannu
All our bikes are available with throttle... so that should sort out your hill starts. But perhaps you want to pay so much more...

Welcome to the forums by the way and it's commendable to set such a fine example to your children.

 

[Yannu]

Hi, that isn't true of the Kalkhoff Image B27, I just tried our demo model on the hill outside and the assistance came on immediately and very strongly. Still one to consider, I think!

Of all of the Kalkhoff bikes it's the one that gets up to speed fastest. A 1:10 hill will be demolished by it.

We don't think much of the BH Emotion bikes - though they use the Panasonic system they don't offer the larger battery capacity and tend to ride a bit hard, with equipment levels that fall below that offered as standard across the Kalkhoff range.

Thanks Tim. Have to say that the comment about almost wheelie-ing it you made previously isn't encouraging for someone who wants to tow a load uphill
Also curious...the panasonic crank driven bikes need to be pedalled at a relatively low cadence to get maximum assist (and I'm most likely to do that going up hill), does the hub driven B27 need any particular technique to optimise or indeed maximise assistance?
Oh and the comment about hill starts and low hill speeds was from this website:bionx electric assist hub motor an american recumbent bike store that was talking about the 350W, 36V version.
Thanks again,
y

 

[Cyclezee]

Thanks Tim. Have to say that the comment about almost wheelie-ing it you made previously isn't encouraging for someone who wants to tow a load uphill
Also curious...the panasonic crank driven bikes need to be pedalled at a relatively low cadence to get maximum assist (and I'm most likely to do that going up hill), does the hub driven B27 need any particular technique to optimise or indeed maximise assistance?
Oh and the comment about hill starts and low hill speeds was from this website:bionx electric assist hub motor an american recumbent bike store that was talking about the 350W, 36V version.
Thanks again,
y

Hi Yannu,

In my opinion, the 350W BionX system is the best of the BionX bunch for performance, the limiting factors are the 9.6Ah battery, the cost and it is not available in the UK.

 

[flecc]

Also curious...the panasonic crank driven bikes need to be pedalled at a relatively low cadence to get maximum assist (and I'm most likely to do that going up hill), does the hub driven B27 need any particular technique to optimise or indeed maximise assistance?
Oh and the comment about hill starts and low hill speeds was from this website:bionx electric assist hub motor an american recumbent bike store that was talking about the 350W, 36V version.
Thanks again,
y

The low cadence only assistance of the Panasonic units no longer applies from 2010 onwards, they have the full power available up to just over 14 mph before phase down, no longer tailing off from 9.4 mph.

Direct drive units like the BionX have poor start up torque, hence that web comment. Once above about 5/6 mph, the torque increases, so it's best to have a slight run at a hill and not start off on one. As long as you have the strength to kick it to 5 mph with a turn or two of the pedals, you'd be ok, but that might not be so easy when towing of course. This is where the crank drive units and particularly the Panasonic one are better, giving a very strong startup thrust, even in top gear.

 

[Yannu]

Hi Yannu
All our bikes are available with throttle... so that should sort out your hill starts. But perhaps you want to pay so much more...

Welcome to the forums by the way and it's commendable to set such a fine example to your children.

Hi Bob,
thanks for your suggestion and for your compliment. Thing is, I want a bike that will assist my pedalling, not a throttle controlled one....I've got a motorbike if I want that kind of control ;-)
(....and I did consider a sidecar but they're even more pricey than an electric bike)
I also need to be able to fit my own pannier rack. That, together will our hilly terrain and my (mad?) desire to pedal seems to limit my options. But as I don't know everything I thought participating in this forum might open up some more to me.
Thanks again,
y

 

[Yannu]

The low cadence only assistance of the Panasonic units no longer applies from 2010 onwards, they have the full power available up to just over 14 mph before phase down, no longer tailing off from 9.4 mph.

Direct drive units like the BionX have poor start up torque, hence that web comment. Once above about 5/6 mph, the torque increases, so it's best to have a slight run at a hill and not start off on one. As long as you have the strength to kick it to 5 mph with a turn or two of the pedals, you'd be ok, but that might not be so easy when towing of course. This is where the crank drive units and particularly the Panasonic one are better, giving a very strong startup thrust, even in top gear.

Thanks flecc, I obviously haven't read the technical FAQs as thoroughly as I could have )
I also welcome your further explanation of the direct drive unit behaviour. As I have two junctions to negotiate as well as children who do occasionally squabble in the trailer (yes, really!) help starting on a hill is essential to me. At the moment, I don't have the strength to 'kick it to 5 mph with a turn or two of the pedals' with a loaded trailer so it looks like a crank driven unit is best for me.
Rgds
y

 

[Yannu]

thanks John

 

[JuicyBike]

Hi Yannu
Our bikes are designed for the hilly Peak District and have throttles in addition to the more usual Pedal Assist.
So, when you set off pedalling the motor will assist. You can, from time to time, use the throttle to help set off up hill, join faster moving traffic, pull away quickly at road junctions, traffic lights, etc.

Most of the time you wouldn't use the throttle. It's actually incredibly difficult to fight the desire to pedal!

My daughter now lives in London and uses one of our bikes. I like to think of her using the throttle to avoid those wobbly moments as she sets off into traffic.

I hope you find time to have a quick look at our website. In common with hub driven bikes in general the savings over crank drive are considerable and we have no problem at all coping with the hills, even towing!

Good luck with your search.

 

[Yannu]

Hi Yannu
Our bikes are designed for the hilly Peak District and have throttles in addition to the more usual Pedal Assist.
So, when you set off pedalling the motor will assist. You can, from time to time, use the throttle to help set off up hill, join faster moving traffic, pull away quickly at road junctions, traffic lights, etc.

Most of the time you wouldn't use the throttle. It's actually incredibly difficult to fight the desire to pedal!

My daughter now lives in London and uses one of our bikes. I like to think of her using the throttle to avoid those wobbly moments as she sets off into traffic.

I hope you find time to have a quick look at our website. In common with hub driven bikes in general the savings over crank drive are considerable and we have no problem at all coping with the hills, even towing!

Good luck with your search.

Hi again,
I had a quick look at your website. There seems to be very little info about the bikes. e.g. The Sport2011 would be the most likely candidate - it looks very long in top tube. What's the frame size?
Oh and where are you?
thanks
y

 

[JuicyBike]

Hi Yannu
We are based in Buxton, Derbyshire, but have stockists around the country, from Preston to Weymouth. See the contact section of our website.
The frame size for the Sport is 19" and there is an extensive review in Electric Bike Magazine.
It would be a pleasure to hear your feedback after a demo ride.

 

[flecc]

Yannu, my comments about startup torque were specific to the direct drive type of hub motor like the BionX. The internally geared type of hub motor such as those that Juicybike use is much better in that respect, though a crank drive motor driving through the gears still has the edge for initial starting.

 

[Yannu]

Hi Yannu
We are based in Buxton, Derbyshire, but have stockists around the country, from Preston to Weymouth. See the contact section of our website.
The frame size for the Sport is 19" and there is an extensive review in Electric Bike Magazine.
It would be a pleasure to hear your feedback after a demo ride.

Thanks so much Bob.
Wish I could have tried your bike but not able to and so have to go with my limited experience, theory and advice available here which means one of the crank driven models that at least I have been able to try out with trailer and children.
Regards
y

 

[Yannu]

Thanks for the clarification flecc.
I've decided to go for the 650 offroad....just got to get the credit card through now.