Lithium..... really hot batteries

[Beeping-Sleauty]

...........just a little too dammed hot, wouldn’t you say.


A couple of evenings ago at mid-night, having handed over the watch to the Ships’ Cat, i retired to my trusty hammock to nuzzle down, just as I was drifting off…. i heard a distant but unfamiliar squeaking.....in my somnambulant state, I almost concluded that the squeaking must surely originate from some form of wildlife… and as such was the Cats’ area of responsibility,…. then, recognition struck me like a thunder-bolt.... the Office smoke alarm, where my big black e-bike sleeps, pausing only to don my smoking jacket, after all, if there’s smoke involved, one should be present in relevant attire…… i descended 15 steps in just under two seconds, to be met with a twelve inch column of flame sprouting vigorously from the top of my 'spare' V-Power LiFePo 36v 20ah battery.......

This battery has stood, on its' own, not connected to anything, not on the bike, not charging, just standing on its lonesome for about ten days, don't think i have so much as looked at it, (perhaps that was the problem..LOL).

i was in the process of making a aluminium case for it, which is nearly complete, dammit. hence it's 'unwrapped' look, and having just charged it, as 57 times before, stood it in a corner awaiting the next session of fitting the case.

anyhow, back to the volcano, .... the flame looks like it is getting bigger and sparkier, lots of white foul-smelling smoke filled with little black bits errupting into the room, can hardly see... grab the battery off the floor, dash with it at arms length, sparks, melting plastic, more smoke and not a little apprehension, out of the back door down to the yard, dash back to house, grab the CO2 extinguisher, back to the battery, give it a real good dose of CO2..... flames go out......flames restart.... more CO2, flames go out.... flames restart, ten minutes of this and the bloody smoke.... enough.... two gallons of water. Done. It continued to spark for another 20 minutes, doused with regular blessings of water, finally after half an hour... the beast was dead.

It was a nice battery.... it only cost £200, had plenty of guts, pushed the bike hard, charged in about 3 hours, bargain...has served me well these past 11 months.

Upon reflection, there was only one possible clue to this event, a couple of times earlier that day I found the Cat hissing at the battery, which I had not noticed it doing ever before.

i have learned a number of lessons from this:

a) Regularly check the batteries in all the smoke alarms.

b) Keep all unused batteries out of the house.

c) Fire extinguishers are a must, and ensure you have a spare.

d) Always wear slippers in the yard when dark. Slugs between the toes do not enhance any emergency

e) Ensure pants are worn when using CO2 extinguishers. Brings a whole new meaning to ‘Mr Frosty’

f) Always trust your Cats’ instincts. Especially if his name is ‘Smokey’

I’ve always been aware of the fire hazard of any type of battery, but had I not seen how fierce these big battery fires can get, there are plenty of examples on YouTube, worth a watch.

So please learn from a saddened, but wiser,

Beeps

 

[kitchenman]

I would have sent the wife. She's always putting my fire out!
Thats a great story. I also have cats. From now on I'll bed them down with my battery. Its about time they earned their keep.

 

[funkylyn]

Just goes to prove you should always have a cat and lends power to my current problem of persuading the family that I NEED a Maine Coon

Lynda

 

[Alex728]

i guess that puts the kibosh on their sales slogan..

The new era has come, the new battery has arrived !Not explode, not burning, safe!

 

[Fordulike]

i was in the process of making an aluminium case for it, which is nearly complete, dammit. hence it's 'unwrapped' look, and having just charged it, as 57 times before, stood it in a corner awaiting the next session of fitting the case.

Do you think you disturbed the battery's wiring when you unwrapped it ready for the casing fit?
When i've taken my battery pack out of the aluminium casing, it is easy for the individual banks of batteries to twist. Therefore plenty of care must be taken.

 

[flecc]

Thank for this thread Beeps, it emphasises what I've posted many times:

All large rechargeable batteries are "household bombs", especially lithium ones!

They should never be taken for granted and are best out of the house. Lithium batteries have the potential to be a danger at any time, even when standing idle, since they can in some fault conditions grow metallic lithium crystals which create internal short circuits, in turn causing fire and explosion.

 

[Scottyf]

Bit of a worry as I always keep mine in the hall of the apartment. Which is probably a huge fire hazard and the only exit out. Unless I can fall 3 floors and some how land like spider man.

I think from now on I'll keep it in the living room next to a window so that if it does catch fire :-

1) I'll be able to exit the apartment
2) I can throw the battery out the window into the car park

Thanks for the warning...

 

[Beeping-Sleauty]

Lithium fires are a bitch

Thank for this thread Beeps, it emphasises what I've posted many times:

All large rechargeable batteries are "household bombs", especially lithium ones!

They should never be taken for granted and are best out of the house. Lithium batteries have the potential to be a danger at any time, even when standing idle, since they can in some fault conditions grow metallic lithium crystals which create internal short circuits, in turn causing fire and explosion.

Hi Flecc,

I remember you raising & re-raising this very subject, yet another instance of a battery suddenly bursting into flame, springs to mind tho’ this was NiMh, I thought LiFePO was somehow safer, ‘seduced by the blurb on the box’.

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/1444-battery-fire.html

this was back in 2008, but it prompted me to install a smoke detector in the corner of the office where I do my bike stuff and install a non-flammable floor section where i stand my various batteries, these rascals are hence banished to the shed, onto a concrete floor & sided with metal sheeting.

What chilled me to the bone when glancing in the rear-view mirror of the event, was that this battery had not been touched for days & still self ignited, and secondly, how difficult it was to extinguish the very fierce fire, just like phosphorous, it just sparks right back up again.

In hind-sight perhaps i should have upended it into a bucket of builders sand, but I really didn’t want to touch it again having braved the run to the yard already, with smoke poring out of seams further down the battery, I didn’t want it exploding whilst I was still holding it.

Hope my experience will help get the message across. Batteries may seem benign, but they are potentially lethal, even when inactive & unconnected.

I hope to perform post-mortem on the battery & will post my findings.

Best,
beeps

 

[Cyclezee]

Ahhhhhhhhhh, now I no what to do with that that pile of unwanted bricks and blocks I have been hoarding, sod the Cup Final and build a bomb shelter!

 

[Beeping-Sleauty]

Do you think you disturbed the battery's wiring when you unwrapped it ready for the casing fit?
When i've taken my battery pack out of the aluminium casing, it is easy for the individual banks of batteries to twist. Therefore plenty of care must be taken.

Hi Fordulike, thanks for your comment,

no, i don't think that the unwrapping affected the wiring, it was only ductape, there was yards of it, i don't like the cheaper variety on anything because the adhesive decays & oozes out from under the seam and onto everything else, this came off 11 months ago and i cleaned and clear-taped the lacquered green carboard box that these batteries are 'formed' in, all the cells are held together with a glue simililar to 'glue-gun' adhesive, the whole creation is absolutely solid, nothing twists or moves anywhere.

there are some clues that the fault maybe originates deeper inside the pack & the top is burnt out because it was upright.

 

[PennyFarthing]

OMG this is shocking!! Thanks for the heads up. Very amusing post though and I did react with several belly laughs. But seriously, where should we we recharing our batteries? I would have to get an electrician in if I want to recharge it in the shed as there is no power. I was just going to use the Utility room to charge the battery when I finally make my purchase. I'm scared now I will go out and come home to find my house on fire but worst for me my dogs injured/dead.

Where can we purchase fire extinguishers that dont cost the earth? Think I will have to invest in a couple, just in case.

 

[Fordulike]

As flecc said, we're glad you highlighted this rare but potentially dangerous issue.
However, I do believe the quality of the manufacturing process plays a big part in overall safety of these batteries.
V-power, although keen on the wallet, doesn't appear to have the best track record, and I reckon their QC is probably bordering on the cowboy side of things.
Whereas Ping has an excellent track record, because he sources the best components and QC's all the way.
I doubt if Nissan would fit their LEAF with batteries that weren't 100% perfect and checked every step of the way. One single incident with the batteries resulting in a consumer death would spell the end for battery powered cars for a long long time.
I reckon a Ping installed in a fire proof type enclosure would ensure you get quality sleep every night. There are some nicely designed fire proof enclosures out there, so you don't have to ride with what looks like your lunchbox strapped to the rack

 

[banbury frank]

Hi I would not worry about your E bike battery If it is properly cased in A fire retardant Case Like the wisper .

The same as we don't would worry about your mobile phone battery that can catch fire with the same results Same type off battery

If you start playing with lithium battery's with no bms Then watch out Keep them in Fire proof Bags Out in the open

Frank

 

[flecc]

But seriously, where should we we recharging our batteries?

Where can we purchase fire extinguishers that dont cost the earth? Think I will have to invest in a couple, just in case.

These incidents are fortunately rare, but with such serious possible consequences it's wise to take some precautions.

The most important thing is never charge a battery when out of the house or asleep.

At all other times either keep them out of the house or in a room with a smoke alarm.

A battery that does overheat badly or ignite is best put into a quantity of cold water (sink, bowl, bath etc) where the reaction can complete harmlessly and be cooled. Pick up a reacting one using a thick covering cloth or other hand protection, not with bare hands.

Small fire extinguishers are fairly useless for this purpose, they won't cool the battery, and sand buckets aren't much use either.

 

[tillson]

I charge and keep my battery in the garage. The charger is usually stood on a concrete floor next to a concrete wall. The only problem is that the battery is sharing garage space with nearly 500 litres of LPG, a big wicker basket and a few hundred square metres of nylon fabric. I'd rather that lot go up than my house though.

Lidl and Aldi occasionally have 1 Kg dry powder fire extinguishers at a reasonable price. They are OK for use on chemical fires.

 

[flecc]

Lidl and Aldi occasionally have 1 Kg dry powder fire extinguishers at a reasonable price. They are OK for use on chemical fires.

I don't recommend them for this application though. The important thing is to remove heat to prevent further combustion and explosion, and dry powder is useless for that. Cold water is usually available, cheap and effective.

 

[Haku]

Holy cathode!

My current ebike battery is starting to show it's age, journeys are getting tougher towards the end as the capacity is noticably dimishing so I'm going to need a replacement before winter because that level of cold maked the battery capacity worse.

How safe is it to re-cell a li-ion battery pack yourself?

Seeing those pics gives me second thoughts about re-celling a pack myself, despite my competance at soldering. A replacement pack is in the £250+ mark but a pile of 18650 cells (with higher capacity) is about £70, with tabs as I wouldn't try to solder directly to a li-ion cell, let alone 28 of them.

 

[flecc]

If you know what you are doing Haku, just as safe as a manufacturer's battery, just so long as the battery's own BMS circuit is compatible with the cells you are using. If you don't know that, the subsequent charging processes could cause cell damage.

However, the main danger of lithium batteries causing fire and explosion occurs when poor cell manufacturing standards result in the random growth of metallic lithium particles internally as I described above. This has nothing to do with assembly standards or usage conditions, it's just down to cell quality.

 

[Cyclezee]

Black Comedy

Beeping Sleuty,

Yours has to rate as one of the funniest and potentially lethal stories I have read, I really didn't know whether to laugh or cry

You certainly have way with words!

 

[Jon]

Bit of a worry as I always keep mine in the hall of the apartment. Which is probably a huge fire hazard and the only exit out. Unless I can fall 3 floors and some how land like spider man.

I think from now on I'll keep it in the living room next to a window so that if it does catch fire :-

1) I'll be able to exit the apartment
2) I can throw the battery out the window into the car park

Thanks for the warning...

Just watch you dont hit a car and set the car park off ;p