Help! Looking for folding ebike, a bit worried about power and hill climbing

[flying_unipig]

Hello pedelecs people,

I currently have a Cube touring ebike, with a Bosch mid drive motor. There are lots of things I love about it, but I am unable to fit it in my car or even most trains, so it really limits the use I get out of it. I originally bought it for commuting, but my circumstances changed, so I mainly use it for leisure trips on trails and the occasional ride in town. Due to my health deteriorating I can't do long rides, so I feel very limited by only being able to use it within a short distance of my house.

I've also moved house and don't have space to store it now, so it lives in the living room and it's a pain to take in and out.

So all of the above to say that I think the answer for me is a folder.

I've been doing lots of research and browsing the forums here, and I think Woosh or Wisper folders are my top contenders. Possibly Wisper due to the torque sensor, as I quite like the feel of that on my Cube.

However, my main worry is how would the power of these rear drive motors compare to my Cube. As mentioned, I have limited ability, can't put a huge amount of effort into pedalling. I understand that cadence sensor might be better in that scenario, but most of the time I get on well with the torque sensor on my current bike and I do enjoy the feel and the ride, so I'm a bit worried about switching to cadence.

I am also a larger rider, at around 100kg.

Sorry for all that background. I guess my question after all that is, what could I expect from the Wisper and Woosh in terms of power, compared to Bosch mid-drive motor? Especially on hill climbs. I worry that any less 'help' than what's given by my Cube would not be enough to allow me to ride regularly.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated!

 

[Woosh]

You need to test ride the bikes as many as possible because of your lack of space and fitness.
Which part of the country do you libve?

 

[MikelBikel]

These people do some folding ebike reviews. And a hill climb test is part of their videos. You can jump straight to that chapter at 24:15. Unfortunately, whether one can get any of these bikes in UK is another matter.
(They are very "keen" on 'Lectric', so maybe sponsored?)

'E-vrc' UK reviewer who tests different power bikes up same hill to compare

 

[flying_unipig]

You need to test ride the bikes as many as possible because of your lack of space and fitness.
Which part of the country do you libve?

Yes, that would be ideal. I'm in Scotland (Angus to be precise) though, which might make things a bit tricky.

 

[lenny]

FOLD HYBRID - COMPACT & FOLDING - TREKKING - E-BIKES | CUBE Bikes

This is the Bosch hybrid you can take with you anywhere. Ride to work, pop it in the car, take it on the train... wherever you go, your Fold Hybrid c…

www.cube.eu

 

[flying_unipig]

These people do some folding ebike reviews. And a hill climb test is part of their videos. You can jump straight to that chapter at 24:15. Unfortunately, whether one can get any of these bikes in UK is another matter.
(They are very "keen" on 'Lectric', so maybe sponsored?)

'E-vrc' UK reviewer who tests different power bikes up same hill to compare

Thanks, interesting, especially the second comparison video. So I guess the message is that most will need some pedalling to help to climb up a steeper hill, which is expected. It's just the 'how much effort' needed part that's really hard to imagine without trying them..

 

[flying_unipig]

FOLD HYBRID - COMPACT & FOLDING - TREKKING - E-BIKES | CUBE Bikes

This is the Bosch hybrid you can take with you anywhere. Ride to work, pop it in the car, take it on the train... wherever you go, your Fold Hybrid c…

www.cube.eu

Oh, nice, I didn't know that this existed or that mid driver folders were even a thing. The price is definitely above what I was hoping for, so a more affordable option would be great. I'll look into this a bit more though.

 

[saneagle]

Hello pedelecs people,

I currently have a Cube touring ebike, with a Bosch mid drive motor. There are lots of things I love about it, but I am unable to fit it in my car or even most trains, so it really limits the use I get out of it. I originally bought it for commuting, but my circumstances changed, so I mainly use it for leisure trips on trails and the occasional ride in town. Due to my health deteriorating I can't do long rides, so I feel very limited by only being able to use it within a short distance of my house.

I've also moved house and don't have space to store it now, so it lives in the living room and it's a pain to take in and out.

So all of the above to say that I think the answer for me is a folder.

I've been doing lots of research and browsing the forums here, and I think Woosh or Wisper folders are my top contenders. Possibly Wisper due to the torque sensor, as I quite like the feel of that on my Cube.

However, my main worry is how would the power of these rear drive motors compare to my Cube. As mentioned, I have limited ability, can't put a huge amount of effort into pedalling. I understand that cadence sensor might be better in that scenario, but most of the time I get on well with the torque sensor on my current bike and I do enjoy the feel and the ride, so I'm a bit worried about switching to cadence.

I am also a larger rider, at around 100kg.

Sorry for all that background. I guess my question after all that is, what could I expect from the Wisper and Woosh in terms of power, compared to Bosch mid-drive motor? Especially on hill climbs. I worry that any less 'help' than what's given by my Cube would not be enough to allow me to ride regularly.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated!

Folding bikes always climb better than ones with big wheels because the motor gets a higher mechanical advantage. basically, they trade speed for force up the hill. If you put the same mptor in bikes with 29" and 20" wheels, the bike with 20" wheel will climb a 45% steeper hill, i.e. if the 29" can do a 10% incline, the 20" can do 14.5%.

 

[guerney]

Looking for folding ebike, a bit worried about power and hill climbing

Are you looking for a ready made bike or conversion kit? I don't think you need worry, if you convert the right bike using the right cadence sensored mid-drive or rear hub motor kit. I weigh 68kg nekkid, my converted bike weighs 22.41kg, and I've very often dragged a 90kg bicycle trailer (trailer weight is 15.5kg, the rest cargo) = 180.41kg total weight (plus clothes worn), up this and other hills using my 20" wheeled Dahon Helios P8 folding bike 36V 250W BBS01B conversion - that wasn't a breeze, but 130kg total weight is. That was when the controller limit was 15A, but it can be set to 20A. I'm not strong, young, or fit. For your weight, I'd suggest a Dahon HIT conversion. Older Dahons have a max rider weight limit of about 105kg. If you choose a BBS01B conversion, get the 36V version, because those can definitely have their controllers programmed. Won't be a fast hill climber, but it'll get you there. Also buy a good quality large capacity battery capable of at least 25A continuous discharge - mine's 19.2Ah/691Wh - bigger is better for hills.

 

[saneagle]

I built a brompton bike (16" wheels) with a very small Q85 motor running at 36v and 15 amps. it could climb 14% with 100kg on board without pedalling.

 

[guerney]

I built a brompton bike (16" wheels) with a very small Q85 motor running at 36v and 15 amps. it could climb 14% with 100kg on board without pedalling.

When I had a throttle and before I programmed the motor, my conversion would climb any hill without pedalling with just 15A. But slowly, with 52T>32T, and I weighed over 87kg at the time. I was able to speed up a bit by moving up gears, but not by a lot. The incline ascents I posted about above was with the controller limit set to 15A. It's now 18A, but it could be set to 20A. I think Dahon Dove and Sweet Pea folding bike forks have 74mm dropouts, and BBS01B compatible BBs: if throttles are legalised, imagine either motor on a 14" wheeled Dahon, transforming it into a very capable Brompton beating hill climbing folding commuter moped - I now weigh less than the 75kg rider weight limit. The height limit won't matter, because I won't be pedalling. Dahon Dove and Sweet Pea hub gears might have to be swapped out for faster geared versions.

 

[saneagle]

When I had a throttle and before I programmed the motor, my conversion would climb any hill without pedalling with just 15A. But slowly, with 52T>32T, and I weighed over 87kg at the time. I was able to speed up a bit by moving up gears, but not by a lot. The incline ascents I posted about above was with the controller limit set to 15A. It's now 18A, but it could be set to 20A. I think Dahon Dove and Sweet Pea folding bike forks have 74mm dropouts, and BBS01B compatible BBs: if throttles are legalised, imagine either motor on a 14" wheeled Dahon, transforming it into a very capable Brompton beating hill climbing folding commuter moped - I now weigh less than the 75kg rider weight limit. The height limit won't matter, because I won't be pedalling. Dahon Dove and Sweet Pea hub gears might have to be swapped out for faster geared versions.

I can't see any sense of using a crank motor on a bike with 20" wheels or smaller. You only get the disadvantages.

 

[guerney]

I can't see any sense of using a crank motor on a bike with 20" wheels or smaller. You only bet the disadvantages.

Guess you'd have to try one, but you probably never will - the big advantage is ease of pedalling while dragging heavy weight, without needing an expensive battery capable of discharging high continuous current. I don't know how much you played with the firmware parameters when you had the previous version to the BBS01B, but for me, it was well worth doing this conversion. No controller or motor overheating that I can detect, no matter what. If I'd found a front hub motor kit pre-brexit within the UK, I would have bought one, but I would have ultimately been disappointed because of all the heavy trailer hauling uphill I suddenly needed to do. My bike's the right tool for the job, and it facilitates speed over the flats as well as ample power uphill, all with a cheap battery with only 15A drawn. If I converted a 16" wheeled Dahon Presto Lite SL using a BBS01B kit, I'd need a larger chainwheel than 52T. The OP enquired after a cheaper mid-drive than the £3k 20" Cube folding bike, I posted about an easier to pedal and cheaper 20" wheeled cadence sensored BBS01B conversion. My conversion cost £909.

 

[saneagle]

Guess you'd have to try one, but you probably never will - the big advantage is ease of pedalling while dragging heavy weight, without needing an expensive battery capable of discharging high continuous current. I don't know how much you played with the firmware parameters when you had the previous version to the BBS01B, but for me, it was well worth doing this conversion. No controller or motor overheating that I can detect, no matter what. If I'd found a front hub motor kit pre-brexit within the UK, I would have bought one, but I would have ultimately been disappointed because of all the heavy trailer hauling uphill I suddenly needed to do. My bike's the right tool for the job, and it facilitates speed over the flats as well as ample power uphill, all with a cheap battery with only 15A drawn. If I converted a 16" wheeled Dahon Presto Lite SL using a BBS01B kit, I'd need a larger chainwheel than 52T. The OP enquired after a cheaper mid-drive than the £3k 20" Cube folding bike, I posted about an easier to pedal and cheaper 20" wheeled cadence sensored BBS01B conversion. My conversion cost £909.

How many times have you heard of any problems with heat on this forum. It’s very unusual to get motor heat problems, though controllers can blow mosfets if they over-heat. That happens with both hub-motors and crank motors. The controller's in crank motors can't get rid of the heat because they're enclosed next to a hot motor and the hub-motor controllers get hot when the motor turns to slow - probably even-Steven's in that respect.

Power and hill-climbing makes no difference. Small wheeled bikes climb just as well with a hub-motor or crank-drive, but you get a better experience with a hub-motor. It's smoother, more convenient, less stress on components and much more.

When you build your next folding bike with 20" wheels, get a 260rpm Q100 motor (nominally 36v), run it at 48v with a KT controller, then you'll see how much better it is. It'll blitz your crappy Bafang thing when climbing with the power turned up, and give a lovely relaxing ride whatever power you set it to. - and you can have a legal throttle. The only advantage the BBS01 could have is a higher top speed, but if you stick to the legal 25 km/hr, you'd never realise it.

 

[guerney]

You really hate mid-drives don't you? I suspect that's a very deep seated bias you have there. My bike doesn't care about your hurtful words, primarily because it's only three years old and can't read yet.

The only advantage the BBS01 could have is a higher top speed, but if you stick to the legal 25 km/hr, you'd never realise it.

A rare admission of my bike's superiority! At some point, I'll sell the Helios, without the rear dropouts filed into strange shapes. And that's another advantage of the BBS01B kit.

I really don't fancy doing all this stuff:

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/electric2011-dahon-jetstream-p8.10584/


This is a heck of a lot quicker and easier, and the results brilliant in my experience:

I was considering a rear hub motor conversion of my yet to be re-assembled 26" wheeled Dahon Espresso folder, but I don't think it'll have enough hill climbing 90kg bicycle trailer dragging power with just 36V and 20A - I'd like to use the Helios's battery - could replace the 22A BMS with a 25A model I suppose. I'll calculate the Espresso's gear inches at some point, it has three chainwheels... then consult the iChing, wicker strands on a pentagram during the blood moon, and the entrails of a Voodoo ceremonially sacrified chicken while drunk (I'll be drunk, not the chicken). Or I could just get another BBS01B: plug and play, program. Simples.

 

[flying_unipig]

Thanks @saneagle and @guerney.
I'm looking for a 'ready made' bike, not a conversion kit. I don't really have the knowledge, time, energy or space to build one myself, but thanks for the useful advice anyway.

Would something like the Rambletta or the 806 have significant limitations compared to a self built one?

 

[Woosh]

Besides the slightly higher price, factory made bikes are neater. Cables are routed internally, battery are integrated into the frames etc. Your problem is test riding.

 

[flying_unipig]

Besides the slightly higher price, factory made bikes are neater. Cables are routed internally, battery are integrated into the frames etc. Your problem is test riding.

Thanks, I guess I meant more in terms of the key specifications. The posters above described good experiences with their specific builds, just wondering whether those are by default 'stronger' than the typical factory made ones?

Yes, test riding is going to be very tricky. Would it be worth trying a different rear hub model, to see the difference to a mid-drive? Or would they be too different to be worth it?

 

[Woosh]

just wondering whether those are by default 'stronger' than the typical factory made ones?

for most people, kits are not stronger than factory built bikes in the same price bracket. Where kits can and do offer more is flexibility, especially for those who need something a bit special. There are for example very few factory made folding bikes having crank motors, or large capacity battery for extended range. If your requirements falls in the average category, range around 25-30 miles, light trails or made road riding then there is no real need to build the bike yourself. As saneagle has already explained, climbing steep hills is easy for 20" folding bikes so kits offer no significant advantage there.

 

[saneagle]

You really hate mid-drives don't you? I suspect that's a very deep seated bias you have there. My bike doesn't care about your hurtful words, primarily because it's only three years old and can't read yet.

I don't hate them. I'm building a bike now with one for myself. There's a place for them. It's a case of weighing up advantages against disadvantages according to your specific circumstances and needs. For an average guy wanting to ride around on the road, the disadvantages always outweigh the advantages. it's just logic.

A rare admission of my bike's superiority! At some point, I'll sell the Helios, without the rear dropouts filed into strange shapes. And that's another advantage of the BBS01B kit.

That shouldn't be a consideration. the filing is pretty insignificant. Nobody should worry or even notice if you filed the drop-outs for a motor, then put the original wheel back. it's not like you cut the frame in half. I've often reconfigured bikes from front drive to rear drive or middle-motor.

During the last 14 years I've been involved with ebikes, I've buit several crank-drive bikes for myselfTwo have been sold, two converted to hub-motors and one left, now one more being built. Also, i used to go to every show and try every bike, regardless of the type of motor. I worked in an ebike shop for over two years fixing and test them too. I know exactly what they're all like, and I can tell you that there are some that are much better than any BBS** that I wouldn't have either. It's nothing personal. It's just that when you see the light, you have to tell everyone and warn them not to stay in the dark.

Part of the problem is that there are some really crappy bikes with hub-motors too. People, like Saracen, try them first, then have a go on a CD bike that seems so much better that they think they've reached the pinnacle. I can understand that, but there's is so much more to experience.

 

[pip48]

I basically wanted a lightweight folding bike that I could easily convert to an ebike. I am 75 and do get back ache as I have spinal stenosis, this makes walking now a problem. But as I love cycling, I wanted a bike to pop into the car and use off road. I researched lots of 20 inch models which had adjustable seat and handlebar heights as I am 6' 2". I found one a British model which was only 13kgs and had accessories I needed, a Dawes Jack. Found a company selling it for £100 less than everyone at £400. Researched ebike kits and not wanting to spend more than necessary chose Yosepower. I ordered the 250watt front hub motor ebike kit along with a 36v 15.6Ah battery. This bike came with a rear carrier which I purposely wanted to mount the battery on. For this Hailing battery I needed a combined battery carrier and controller which had to be ordered separately. The ebike kit arrived from UK in just 3 days and the battery carrier in 10 days from Italy.
The bike had city tyres and I had read elsewhere that traction using a front wheel motor can produce wheel spin on non tarmac surfaces, so I changed the front tyre for a Michelin Country J which was recommended by tyre distributors.
Connecting everything together was very straightforward and the resulting weight excluding the battery is 17.5kgs.