Misleading advertising 250w power rating ebikes - not

[MikeFB]

I've noticed lately that there are a few sellers advertising some ebikes as either less powerful than they are or the other way around. I have seen a bike that has a 1000w motor advertised as being 250w and a 500w as 750w.

Now a fully understand that the rating of 250w is just a continuous rating and not a max rating etc, so its becomes difficult to give a measurement that is precise and universal for all motors.

However with regards sellers selling 1000w ebikes as 250w this surely isn't right. It can lead to an unsuspecting buyer potentially riding an illegal bike unknowingly.

Your thoughts?

 

[oyster]

If the issue is, as appears, largely a legal one, it would be appropriate for vendors to be required to state whether (or not) each bike is road legal.

 

[flecc]

I've noticed lately that there are a few sellers advertising some ebikes as either less powerful than they are or the other way around. I have seen a bike that has a 1000w motor advertised as being 250w and a 500w as 750w.

Now a fully understand that the rating of 250w is just a continuous rating and not a max rating etc, so its becomes difficult to give a measurement that is precise and universal for all motors.

However with regards sellers selling 1000w ebikes as 250w this surely isn't right. It can lead to an unsuspecting buyer potentially riding an illegal bike unknowingly.

Your thoughts?

In most cases these are direct drive motors with dual switchable power levels. The sellers seem to assume that having the 250 watts option makes them legal.

These are illegal to ride on the roads as pedelecs if the switching is under the rider's control, allowing the higher rating on the road, whether it's used or not. That's because the rider having the 1000 watts option makes it a motor vehicle in law, needing type approval and registration etc.

But in practice it seems nothing is ever done about it.
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[MikeFB]

I've noticed a few ebike businesses setup on auction and free advertising websites due to people losing their jobs because of covid 19. However they clearly have no idea or just plain don't care.

The bike in question is most definitely has a 1000w rated motor with no switch to change it to 250w. In fact the adert says it is a 250w bike and it can be used for commuting etc, but also says in the details later on that it has a 500w motor and then later on in the same ad again says it has a 1000w motor. Clearly either they are clueless or trying it on and protecting their back.

 

[flecc]

I've noticed a few ebike businesses setup on auction and free advertising websites due to people losing their jobs because of covid 19. However they clearly have no idea or just plain don't care.

The bike in question is most definitely has a 1000w rated motor with no switch to change it to 250w. In fact the adert says it is a 250w bike and it can be used for commuting etc, but also says in the details later on that it has a 500w motor and then later on in the same ad again says it has a 1000w motor. Clearly either they are clueless or trying it on and protecting their back.

In many cases they are relying on the fact that the authorities do nothing about such illegality since it's so small in scale. More important things to worry about etc., etc.
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[vfr400]

The power comes from the controller, not the motor.

The UK law is that the motor must not be rated at more than 250w. Rated power is a pretty well meaningless term. It's basically what the seller says it is.

 

[vfr400]

The bike in question is most definitely has a 1000w rated motor with no switch to change it to 250w. In fact the adert says it is a 250w bike and it can be used for commuting etc, but also says in the details later on that it has a 500w motor and then later on in the same ad again says it has a 1000w motor. Clearly either they are clueless or trying it on and protecting their back.

Show us the ad. Some of them have options and the description covers all of them.

 

[MikeFB]

This is one of the ads. It's a Rick Bit ebike that I'm pretty sure is built and manufactured as a 1000w ebike and not a kit that has two wires from a controller or a switch to change the rating:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Richbit-26-250w-or-500w-Electric-Mountain-e-bike-BIG-BRAND-QUALITY-LOW-PRICE/124231696639?hash=item1cecc940ff:g:V8oAAOSwcFBe8KXF

I personally have no issue with people riding 1000w+ bikes or the kits which state they have a switch or controller that can change the motor rating, but it does get my goat when a seller tries to dup or deceive people into thinking that what they have is legal for UK road use.

 

[flecc]

The specification he declares makes it doubly illegal, 1000 watts and maximum assist 30 kph. I assume the spec is from his supplier.
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[sjpt]

There are a lot of grey lines: eg exactly what is a 'switch' for changing power, does it include things deep down in the menu system? What about kits and throttles? There have been several discussions here that have never been fully resolved.

That is for us who look into these things quite a bit. But I agree with the sentiment of many of the posts above. These ads are particularly misleading for (perfectly reasonable and responsible) people who don't join forums or have a clue where to look for detailed advice/laws, or don't even think that there is any reason to look for such advice/laws.

 

[vfr400]

There are often mistakes in these sort of listings. they cut and paste stuff from one add to another without checking. You see it in nearly every Chinese battery ad. Nobody cares about the power anyway as long as it's limited to 15.5 mph.

 

[flecc]

There are a lot of grey lines: eg exactly what is a 'switch' for changing power, does it include things deep down in the menu system? What about kits and throttles? There have been several discussions here that have never been fully resolved.

I've always considered it resolved. If any tool is needed to make the change, it's a modification so the pedelec is legal if not modified.

If the change can be done by the rider's hands while on the road, the pedelec is illegal at all times on the road since it doesn't qualify for exemption from being a motor vehicle.
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[Woosh]

If any tool is needed to make the change, it's a modification so the pedelec is legal if not modified.

the lack of tampering protection is obviously a concern.
If you can turn off the speed limiter by twisting the magnet or the sensor head so that the sensor no longer detects correctly the passing magnet - are your fingers then considered a tool?
If they are, then what's the difference using the same fingers going down a menu tree?

 

[flecc]

If you can turn off the speed limiter by twisting the magnet or the sensor head so that the sensor no longer detects correctly the passing magnet - are your fingers then considered a tool?

Yes, because that is clearly a physical modification to the structure using manual force as a tool.

It's very different from using a vehicle control like a button or switch.
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[Woosh]

but there is no more 'off road' switch.
The off-road setting is obtained through increasing the maximum speed setting in the LCD.

 

[flecc]

but there is no more 'off road' switch.
The off-road setting is obtained through increasing the maximum speed setting in the LCD.

Which if under the rider's hand control is illegal. The DfT has been perfectly clear, if the rider can circumvent the legal limits specified in the exemption from being a motor vehicle, one of which is the 25kph assist limit, they should get the vehicle type approved as a motor vehicle.

That's the law. Of course like so many areas of pedelec law it hasn't been enforced, so over time the manufacturers have taken ever greater liberties and the authorities have taken no notice.

For example, original pedelecs had one power rating and level and a strict wattage rating according to a British Standard. But over time and with the addition of legal confusion due to EU regulations, the actual power levels have been stretched, multiple switched power levels have been added amounting to illegal throttles and software performance tuning has been added.

But the fact that no-one is taking any notice doesn't make any of it legal. It's rather like our accepted but illegal 80 mph motorways.
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[sjpt]

One thing we agree on for sure, there is almost no attempt to enforce these laws.

There is still grey area: moving the (undefined) word 'switch', onto the (undefined) word 'tool' doesn't really help much. Even the word 'rider' isn't clear. Does it apply to the rider while in the act of riding, or to the person who sometimes rides. What if the 'rider' is astride the bike but not moving. etc etc ...

So back to the point. It is very confusing for us; no wonder the ads mislead people who don't even know they there is something to be confused about.

 

[flecc]

There is still grey area: moving the (undefined) word 'switch', onto the (undefined) word 'tool' doesn't really help much.

I disagree, with a tool is a structural modification, by using any hand controls provided it's clearly rider operation, changing it into a motor vehicle.

Even the word 'rider' isn't clear. Does it apply to the rider while in the act of riding, or to the person who sometimes rides. What if the 'rider' is astride the bike but not moving. etc etc ...

Once again I disagree, it's long been perfectly clear that it's the person in charge of the vehicle on the road. For example someone in possession of a car key in the proximity of a car is in charge of it. In the case of a cyclist it's the person who took it onto the road and is on or close to it, unless they can show they handed it to someone else.

I don't know why so many argue about this, the law is perfectly clear and it's motor vehicle law, not riding law. To be exempted from motor vehicle law the pedelec cannot be capable of assist power at over 15.5 mph, it must be rated at no more than 250 watts and power must cease when pedalling stops.

Any breach and it's a motor vehicle which must be type approved and registered before being ridden. As I'm sure you already know, even adding a fully acting throttle makes it an L1e-A motor vehicle, despite compliance with the assist speed limit and power limit.
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[soundwave]

give it 6 months and everyone will be moaning about all the scooters

 

[Woosh]

let's just ignore the context of a physical switch because there is no switch.
Let's discuss the difference between a physical dongle and going through a menu tree to change the speed setting.
Both mechanisms cannot be performed on the fly. You have to stop the bike and do it.
So it's clear when you ride a legal bike and when you are not. You can't switch from one mode to the other like you can stop using the throttle or switch your lights on and off for example.