Panasonic Battery Issues

[Andyj]

For those already caught in the issue of problems with the Agattu Battery, I too have realised there is a problem with my own battery.

After a week or so with the bike not performing, I thought, due to the cold spell of weather we have been experiencing, the bike's capacity was still below par when the weather improved.
Having read a blog on this site as to how to conduct a power test by holding the battery button down for 10 seconds, my battery was only delivering 8amps.

Having contacted Lloyd from 50 Cycles, the battery is now on its way back to them for investigation.

Not sure about the rest of you I am so dissappointed having read about all the other problems with batteries from other manufactureres, I thought the reputation and reliability associated with the panasonic brand would prevale.

Anyway off the road now until the problem is resolved; I certainly hope this is only one of a few isolated incidents and not a major issue.

Thank goodness for the two year warranty.

Andy

 

[flecc]

It is unusual Andy, Panasonic e-bike batteries normally having lives only dreamed of by most others. Even with li-ion batteries where they were about the first in with them on their own make bikes about five years ago, some have been lasting into four years and beyond.

The latest battery is a variation in construction and chemistry from the previous one and I've no doubt they will be working hard the solve the problem that's appearing on a small number of them. As you say, the warranty gives peace of mind, it's two years being just wishful thinking for many other makes.
.

 

[tillson]

Make tha Pro Connect as well.

I’m afraid that my battery is showing signs of deterioration as well and I will be contacting 50C next week. When I first had the bike (Pro Connect) it did 36 miles on the first conditioning discharge. The second conditioning discharge took me a shade over 40 miles.

Since then I have been using it mainly for my commute to work and back. This is an 18 mile round trip. Initially, I could get to work and back only putting one light out on the handlebar indicator. I have been progressively seeing the first light go out earlier and earlier until I am now at the stage where I am on a flashing LED by the time I get home. (This is with the standard 23 tooth rear sprocket)

I have just tried the 10 second button push on the battery and only four out of the five LEDs illuminate. I think my battery has lost between 20 and 40 % of its capacity in about 15 weeks of usage and 1150 miles. I really do hope that these are isolated cases.

I take some comfort from the fact that I have a 2 year guarantee, but the rate of deterioration on my first battery is disconcerting. If this rate of deterioration is a generic feature of this type of battery’s chemistry, one battery per 1100 miles will be more expensive than petrol for my car once the guarantee runs out! Fingers crossed that we just have Friday afternoon batteries!

I wasn’t going to post anything on this for fear of scaremongering, but seeing as this is the second person that I am aware of to raise the subject, I suppose me making it three doesn’t make it that much more scary. After all there must be hundreds of bikes out there without this problem??????????

 

[fishingpaul]

I’m afraid that my battery is showing signs of deterioration as well and I will be contacting 50C next week. When I first had the bike (Pro Connect) it did 36 miles on the first conditioning discharge. The second conditioning discharge took me a shade over 40 miles.

Since then I have been using it mainly for my commute to work and back. This is an 18 mile round trip. Initially, I could get to work and back only putting one light out on the handlebar indicator. I have been progressively seeing the first light go out earlier and earlier until I am now at the stage where I am on a flashing LED by the time I get home. (This is with the standard 23 tooth rear sprocket)

I have just tried the 10 second button push on the battery and only four out of the five LEDs illuminate. I think my battery has lost between 20 and 40 % of its capacity in about 15 weeks of usage and 1150 miles. I really do hope that these are isolated cases.

I take some comfort from the fact that I have a 2 year guarantee, but the rate of deterioration on my first battery is disconcerting. If this rate of deterioration is a generic feature of this type of battery’s chemistry, one battery per 1100 miles will be more expensive than petrol for my car once the guarantee runs out! Fingers crossed that we just have Friday afternoon batteries!

I wasn’t going to post anything on this for fear of scaremongering, but seeing as this is the second person that I am aware of to raise the subject, I suppose me making it three doesn’t make it that much more scary. After all there must be hundreds of bikes out there without this problem??????????

Batteries do not like cold weather,and i would expect a large drop off in performance in the cold,it may be the battery but temperatures have been plummeting,and everybody noticed large reductions in distance in the cold last year.

 

[tillson]

50 C have replaced my battery. I drove over to them this morning and they tested it and exchanged it for a new one whilst I waited, so I am relieved that I won't be off the road.

Faultless service again from 50C. Thank you.

 

[WALKERMAN]

Battery Test?

Can someone explain the 10 sec. battery test please?

I can't find it by doing a search.

 

[HarryB]

Can someone explain the 10 sec. battery test please?

I can't find it by doing a search.

Hold the button down for 10 seconds and it gives you the capacity left in the battery. Should be all 5 bars which is 10Ah. Some of us had had the capacity reduce to 4 bars so 8Ah. This is independent of how much charge is in the battery - it could for example be discharged and flashing but you would still get 5 bars if you held the button down.

 

[andyh2]

Just to add my name to the list of those who've had a battery nothold it's capacity. I checked mine at about 400 miles and noticed it was at 80%. Returned to 50cycles who replaced it no problem. Hopefully this one's capacity will last.

 

[WALKERMAN]

Pro Connect Battery Test

Hold the button down for 10 seconds and it gives you the capacity left in the battery. Should be all 5 bars which is 10Ah. Some of us had had the capacity reduce to 4 bars so 8Ah. This is independent of how much charge is in the battery - it could for example be discharged and flashing but you would still get 5 bars if you held the button down.

I got home this evening having done 13 miles on full power setting and had one light left on the battery. (I use a 16T sprocket)

I did the test and it registered 3 lights on the battery.

I got the Pro Connect in July and have done about 950 miles.

This test result isn't looking good for this mileage is it?

 

[prState]

I'm starting to think NiMh, even as old technology and with its weight, is not such a bad deal.

 

[joab]

What I have seen using the Cycle Analyst on my bike is that when I'm limiting the max current value I get a much better range. I have set the max current value to 6A, this limits the WATT produced by the bike to +- 220W. In the past the limit on my bike was 20A and that was given peaks of 700W. I get the impression that the LION battery types don’t like those peak moments at all.
To avoid all misunderstanding I don't have a kalkhoff but an EZEE kit with a 350w motor. My battery has done about 3300 miles and 178 battery cycles.
Regards,
Jo

 

[HarryB]

I'm starting to think NiMh, even as old technology and with its weight, is not such a bad deal.

I have had my share of li-ion battery problems and was very pleased that the Cytronex is NiMH. A bit heavier but the range is adequate for the majority of journeys. Certainly if I was looking for a new ebike I would hope for a NiMH option (Ezee) or very high capacity li-ion like Wisper. Otherwise I think you should be charging as often as possible and never get to the point where the battery light is flashing on the Kalkhoffs.

 

[JamesC]

What I have seen using the Cycle Analyst on my bike is that when I'm limiting the max current value I get a much better range. I have set the max current value to 6A, this limits the WATT produced by the bike to +- 220W. In the past the limit on my bike was 20A and that was given peaks of 700W. I get the impression that the LION battery types don’t like those peak moments at all.
To avoid all misunderstanding I don't have a kalkhoff but an EZEE kit with a 350w motor. My battery has done about 3300 miles and 178 battery cycles.
Regards,
Jo

Hi Jo
I don't have a Cycle Analyst to prove my point, but I believe that I achieve a similar result on my Ezee Torq, simply by having 2 Li-ion batteries in parallel on every occasion that I ride it.

The current drawn from each battery won't be as low as 6A, but by halving the load on each battery, the stress is greatly reduced.

I charge each battery separately after use, monitoring the input in Wh. I continue to be amazed that the 2 batteries share the load so evenly, taking almost exactly the same amount of energy to replenish them.

James

 

[tillson]

I was looking for a new ebike I would hope for a NiMH option (Ezee) or very high capacity li-ion like Wisper..

I see a couple more people have started to report problems, so I would tend to agree with this. A friend who has a Giant is still on his first battery (NiMH) after 4500 miles and 3.5 years. The battery is still good enough for his 20 mile round trip commute and he doesn't need to recharge it at work!

I wonder how much a problem these latest batteries are. I think we have four reports of battery faults on this forum. I should imagine that we, the Panasonic owning forum members, represent a small percentage of the total number of Panasonic motored ebike sales. Of our small percentage of owners, what percentage have carried out the battery test, or are even aware of it? The four faults identified could be from a very very small number of batteries sampled and a lot of people may be carrying the fault without being aware. Other than the charge status lights going out early, which may not yet be a problem for them.

Otherwise I think you should be charging as often as possible and never get to the point where the battery light is flashing on the Kalkhoffs.

I take your point on this and it is probably good for the battery, but the bike wasn't marketed as needing a charge every 10 miles or so. I bought mine to commute 18 miles per day. According to the sales litrature, it should manage that easily on a single charge and it did for the first 800 miles. After then, I had a flashing light on the battery status indicator before I reached home. Towards the end, the battery hardly made it and if I made a deviation to my route adding 3 extra miles, the battery would be exhausted before I arrived home. I'm sure running the battery so low didn't do it any good, but I don't think riding 18 miles per day is abusing it. I am riding well within the specified maximum range and using the standard rear sprocket.

50 C were excellent when it came to sorting out the fault and exchanged the battery the same day that I reported it faulty. They assured me that they have had very few battery problems reported. That of course could be for the reasons that I have stated above, or indeed, it could be that there isn't a problem with this type of battery technology, and I and the three others have been unlucky to get the defective ones out of the many thousand manufactured so far.

A point I am thinking about is the guarantee. Does the 2 year clock start again on this new battery? I suspect not. If the problem persists beyond 2 years from time of sale, is this an ongoing problem reported under warranty but not yet resolved? I hope so, because at one battery every 1000 miles or so, I will have to sell the bike for something more ecconomical to run like a Range Rover V8 Sport.

As an aside, I have just done the first conditioning discharge on my new battery. I managed a shade over fourty miles, which was nice. The LED on the handlebar started flashing at 1 Hz after only 18 mile. 22 miles on one flashing LED seems a bit non-linear. I know the indicator isn't linear, but............

 

[flecc]

I see a couple more people have started to report problems, so I would tend to agree with this. A friend who has a Giant is still on his first battery (NiMH) after 4500 miles and 3.5 years. The battery is still good enough for his 20 mile round trip commute and he doesn't need to recharge it at work!

As an aside, I have just done the first conditioning discharge on my new battery. I managed a shade over fourty miles, which was nice. The LED on the handlebar started flashing at 1 Hz after only 18 mile. 22 miles on one flashing LED seems a bit non-linear. I know the indicator isn't linear, but............

Those Giant-Panasonic NiMh batteries were brilliant, and I ran to 4.5 years on one before recelling, the second battery I gave away to someone as a spare and it was working well at 5 years old last I heard of it. However, they were very expensive in their day, £250 several years ago, and they had very easy running conditions, a low powered motor with restrictive software and no high power mode. I do regret the passing of high quality high discharge rate NiMh batteries though, done too prematurely by the industry.

That non-linearity of the meter may well improve after the battery is fully conditioned. Panasonic batteries I've recelled in the past have had their meters reading nonsense until at least one full charge and discharge had been completed. Basically for internal meter circuits to be accurate, they need to know the battery charge floor level to measure from, and that doesn't register until that first full discharge.
.

 

[tillson]

Walkerman

This is the wrong way of using the diagnostic, this can only be done when fully charged

However 3 lights showing after 13 miles with a 16 T cog is just fine and what we would expect in cold weather.


Best regards

Scott

Scott

I think Walkerman is saying that he only had one light remaining after 13 miles, and that when he did the "10 second hold on the button" battery capacity test, only three lights came on.

Or am I being thick?

Regards

Tom

Posted by Walkerman
I got home this evening having done 13 miles on full power setting and had one light left on the battery. (I use a 16T sprocket)

I did the test and it registered 3 lights on the battery.

I got the Pro Connect in July and have done about 950 miles.

This test result isn't looking good for this mileage is it?

 

[flecc]

What Scott is saying is that the capacity test should only have been done after the battery had been recharged, not after the journey.

That makes sense, it being necessary for the battery to have a full charge for the test to reveal whats retained by the cells at that point.

Gearing these bikes up drastically for performance such as fitting a 16 tooth sprocket in place of a 23 tooth seriously impairs the range as I warned when they were first introduced. The manufacturers set the specifications for best overall performance in all factors, and altering them to gain in one area will inevitably have a cost in another.
.

 

[JamesC]

Of our small percentage of owners, what percentage have carried out the battery test, or are even aware of it? The four faults identified could be from a very very small number of batteries sampled and a lot of people may be carrying the fault without being aware. Other than the charge status lights going out early, which may not yet be a problem for them.

Hi Tom
I purchased my ProConnect in June, and not long after bought a second battery to extend the range.

Total mileage to date for the bike is 1016 miles, alternating between the 2 batteries.

Battery 1 has been charged 32 times and battery 2 has been charged 29 times - total for both = 61.

Average mileage per charge = 16.6 miles.

On longer trips, I tend to swap batteries when the final light on the handlebars just starts to flash, typically 4 miles before complete discharge. I use a 19T sprocket and always ride on maximum assist.

As at today, both batteries still give the 5 lights on the 10 second test.

The noticeable change since the Summer is the earlier loss of the higher voltage. By this I mean that the first light on the handlebars goes out after say 5 miles now compared with 8 miles previously.

The loss of 3 miles is about what I am experiencing in the total range, and as a sceptic with past experience of other makes, I am not expecting the mileage to reappear when the weather warms up.

James

PS 10 second tests done when battery is fully charged

PPS Total range per battery with 19T sprocket has changed from approx 26 miles in Summer to 23 miles now.

 

[HarryB]

What Scott is saying is that the capacity test should only have been done after the battery had been recharged, not after the journey.
.

From my experience I found it made no difference whether the battery was charged or mostly discharged, I would still get the 3 lights with the 10 sec test. Having said that it makes sense to check it with a fully charged battery.

 

[WALKERMAN]

Pro Connect Battery

I fully charged the battery tonight then did the 10 second test.

It registered 3 lights on.