Project: ghEttoBIKE

danielrlee

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May 27, 2012
1,349
692
Westbury, Wiltshire
torquetech.co.uk
1hr Electric Bike Hub Motor Conversion | ELECTRICBIKE.COM
Pic 5 recommends 50ft/lbs - personally, I just go by feel and that seems about right. Bear in mind the machining off of the sides of the axles has reduced the thread bearing area substantially.
Thank you Scimitar, but damn, I've just realised that I don't have a socket deep enough for my torque wrench. It'll have to be by feel with a regular spanner for now.
 

Scimitar

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Jul 31, 2010
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Be a bit cautious, I've just noticed others mention 30ft/lbs. I'd treat that as a minimun and shoot for 40.
 

danielrlee

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May 27, 2012
1,349
692
Westbury, Wiltshire
torquetech.co.uk
On the advice of the controller supplier who suggested that the battery setup (2x 7ah @ 12v in series) might not be able to deliver the required current, I tried a 2 series / 2 parallel arrangement, but am still having the same problem.

While the motor is operating for the couple of seconds it will, the batteries sag only a little to 25v, so I don't think that these are the issue.

The label on the controller does list a worryingly low current limit of 10A, which may turn out to be a problem, but surely the motor shouldn't draw that much at no load? Since the 10A fuse is still intact, I am assuming that the motor isn't trying to draw more power than the controller can handle.

This is driving me nuts!
 

jhruk

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May 13, 2009
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No smoke or funny smells - always a good start. Picking up the throttle, I prayed, twisted it........ and got some movement, but it's clearly not what it should be. The motor clicks several times, then stops. During this clicking, the wheel may rotate randomly as each click occurs. Is this a phase issue?

When I repaired the motor last week, I couldn't find the correct coloured wire, so used a thick 3 core mains cable. I'm pretty sure that I haven't got the wires muddled up in reference to their new colours, but I guess I could have. I want to just swap them over at the controller to try an alternative phasing, but obviously don't want to damage anything if it's already wired in correctly. Is it okay to do this?
There’s no standard colour coding standard for these - swapping two of the phase wires to see if it runs more smoothly will do no harm.

I notice the controller also has a pair of ‘automatic study wires’ I’ve not come across these before but presumably this enables the controller to remember the correct sequence for starting the motor in the right direction.

This ES thread has a little about them. I’d try following those instructions, connecting the two wires and running the motor until it has ‘learnt’. Not clear whether you have to turn the wheel manually while it learns, or if you run it until it does. If nobody here knows any more I’d just try it and see.

The batteries shouldn’t be a problem until the motor is under load.
 

danielrlee

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 27, 2012
1,349
692
Westbury, Wiltshire
torquetech.co.uk
There’s no standard colour coding standard for these - swapping two of the phase wires to see if it runs more smoothly will do no harm.

I notice the controller also has a pair of ‘automatic study wires’ I’ve not come across these before but presumably this enables the controller to remember the correct sequence for starting the motor in the right direction.

This ES thread has a little about them. I’d try following those instructions, connecting the two wires and running the motor until it has ‘learnt’. Not clear whether you have to turn the wheel manually while it learns, or if you run it until it does. If nobody here knows any more I’d just try it and see.

The batteries shouldn’t be a problem until the motor is under load.
I just tried alternative motor phase combinations, but got next to no movement from the motor. This leads me to believe that the phasing is correct as is.

The wiring diagram is generic for all controllers the manufacturer makes and my controller doesn't feature these automatic study wires.

Would a video of the problem be of any help to anyone?
 

danielrlee

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May 27, 2012
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I have just had a little back-and-forth email with the supplier and I am now more confused than ever. I am left questioning my whole understanding of electronics! This is how I understood it: Current is drawn from the motor, not pushed from the battery if you will.

Assuming the motor draws 250w, the battery needs to be able to supply a current of 10.4 amps to satisfy this (assuming 100% efficiency). This is not the same as amphours or watthours, which is a measure of battery capacity - a 7ah battery drained at 10 amps will last 0.7 hours (about 40 minutes). In theory, I could use a battery of huge capacity and the only limiting factors will be its weight and the maximum instantaneous power that can be drawn from the battery.

EDIT: I understand the limitations of SLA and that ideally, they shouldn't be discharged much past 50% to maintain a healthy battery life.

Is the above correct? If not, I clearly think I know more than I actually do.
 
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danielrlee

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May 27, 2012
1,349
692
Westbury, Wiltshire
torquetech.co.uk
Another note I should probably add is that I'm not currently using the propper connectors for either the battery to controller connection or the controller to motor connection - I have simply stuffed bare wires into the connectors. The motor connectors are getting warm (but not hot) in just a few attempts of twisting the throttle. Is it possible that the resistance of these connections is too high and unable to pass the required current?

EDIT: I've tested the resistance at the battery connector at the closest accessible points and its just 0.6 ohms, so this isn't a problem. I am however unable to test the motor connectors since the only connection that I could make involves removing the heat tubing I added inside the motor, which I'd rather not have to do. I suspect that warm motor connectors is a red herring anyway.

This seemed like quite a simple project when I started, but now I'm left wondering if I've bitten off more than I can chew. Each component I buy (and I've just ordered a pannier rack and rather neat bag) is starting to feel like good money after bad...... I'm not giving up yet though, as I'd imagine this is the last major hurdle I will have to clear.
 
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jhruk

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 13, 2009
318
68
I have just had a little back-and-forth email with the supplier and I am now more confused than ever. I am left questioning my whole understanding of electronics! This is how I understood it: Current is drawn from the motor, not pushed from the battery if you will.

Assuming the motor draws 250w, the battery needs to be able to supply a current of 10.4 amps to satisfy this (assuming 100% efficiency). This is not the same as amphours or watthours, which is a measure of battery capacity - a 7ah battery drained at 10 amps will last 0.7 hours (about 40 minutes). In theory, I could use a battery of huge capacity and the only limiting factors will be its weight and the maximum instantaneous power that can be drawn from the battery.

EDIT: I understand the limitations of SLA and that ideally, they shouldn't be discharged much past 50% to maintain a healthy battery life.

Is the above correct? If not, I clearly think I know more than I actually do.
More or less correct. Current is drawn by the motor from the battery via the controller. The motor will try and draw as much current as it needs, not much when unloaded but increasing with load. The amount it can draw will be limited by a current limiter in the controller, to prevent overloading both controller and motor, and by what the battery can supply.

You can check the batteries by monitoring the voltage as you turn the throttle. It shouldn’t drop below the low voltage cutout value of the controller, probably around 20v. The current drawn when the motor is unloaded, and running at full speed, should be no more than 1-2 amps.


Have you tried spinning the wheel before opening the throttle – being sensorless it may need a start.

Have you checked the motor windings - the resistance between each pair of phase wires should be very low. Probably less than 1 ohm - you won’t be able to read the value accurately on a cheap multimeter.
 

danielrlee

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 27, 2012
1,349
692
Westbury, Wiltshire
torquetech.co.uk
More or less correct. Current is drawn by the motor from the battery via the controller. The motor will try and draw as much current as it needs, not much when unloaded but increasing with load. The amount it can draw will be limited by a current limiter in the controller, to prevent overloading both controller and motor, and by what the battery can supply.

You can check the batteries by monitoring the voltage as you turn the throttle. It shouldn’t drop below the low voltage cutout value of the controller, probably around 20v. The current drawn when the motor is unloaded, and running at full speed, should be no more than 1-2 amps.


Have you tried spinning the wheel before opening the throttle – being sensorless it may need a start.

Have you checked the motor windings - the resistance between each pair of phase wires should be very low. Probably less than 1 ohm - you won’t be able to read the value accurately on a cheap multimeter.
Thanks for confirming that I'm not a complete idiot :)

I have tried spinning the wheel prior to opening the throttle, but it makes no difference.

I opend up the hub motor a little earlier to take a look at the windings, but I can't figure out where one winding ends and the next begins. This photo is from before I repaired the motor wiring, but shows the windings anyway:

IMG_4685.jpg

I am far from an electronics expert and have never tested motor windings before. I googled how to do so earlier, but couldn't make sense of my own motor.
 

neptune

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Jan 30, 2012
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Boston lincs
How the windings are connected. There are 3 phases, or sets of coils . Lets call them A, B , And C . So a third of the coils belong to each phase . Suppose we trace one input wire, and trace which coil it enters . Call That coil 1 and suppose it is the first coil of phaseA . current then exits this coil 1, misses two coils and enters coil 4 , misses two more coils and enters coil 7 . Suppose , during winding that only phase A has been completed. So we get a wound coil, two bare coil cores , a coil;, 2 bare cores and so on, until we get back around the motor to near where we started, We wind the first coil of phase B next door to coil1 and wind every third coil, back around to the start point . Phase c , we just fill in the remaining gaps.

So now every phase has a beginning wire and an end wire. The beginning wires all go to the controller . The end wires are all connected together . This method of interconnecting the phase is called"Y" connection . We can represent it diagramatically , by drawing each set of phase
s coils as just one long coil . So draw a letter Y with coils instead of lines.

A less common way to interconnect the phases is called Delta. Draw an equilateral triangle, but use coils instead of lines . Connect the wires from the controller to the points of the triangle. So each flexible input wire connects to TWO phase wires .

Whether Y or Delta an ohms reading between any 2 input wires should be the same . Draw the diagrams . Hope this helps.
 
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danielrlee

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 27, 2012
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692
Westbury, Wiltshire
torquetech.co.uk
How the windings are connected. There are 3 phases, or sets of coils . Lets call them A, B , And C . So a third of the coils belong to each phase . Suppose we trace one input wire, and trace which coil it enters . Call That coil 1 and suppose it is the first coil of phaseA . current then exits this coil 1, misses two coils and enters coil 4 , misses two more coils and enters coil 7 . Suppose , during winding that only phase A has been completed. So we get a wound coil, two bare coil cores , a coil;, 2 bare cores and so on, until we get back around the motor to near where we started, We wind the first coil of phase B next door to coil1 and wind every third coil, back around to the start point . Phase c , we just fill in the remaining gaps.

So now every phase has a beginning wire and an end wire. The beginning wires all go to the controller . The end wires are all connected together . This method of interconnecting the phase is called"Y" connection . We can represent it diagramatically , by drawing each set of phase
s coils as just one long coil . So draw a letter Y with coils instead of lines.

A less common way to interconnect the phases is called Delta. Draw an equilateral triangle, but use coils instead of lines . Connect the wires from the controller to the points of the triangle. So each flexible input wire connects to TWO phase wires .

Whether Y or Delta an ohms reading between any 2 input wires should be the same . Draw the diagrams . Hope this helps.
Wow! Thanks Neptune. What a great explanation that is. I had found the information elsewhere, but yours is SO much easer to digest. I'm going to dive in with my multimeter shortly. Fingers crossed that all is well with the motor. From what I understand, these motors are pretty robust and there is very little to go wrong with them.
 

neptune

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Jan 30, 2012
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Glad you could understand my explanation. There is an additional test to do . Put your multimeter on ohms.If it has several ohms ranges, choose the highest one. Put one meter probe on any phase wire. Put the other probe on the metal outer case of the motor . The meter should give a very high reading, exactly the same reading as it gives when the probes are connected to nothing. If it passes this test, there are no earth faults on the windings.
 

danielrlee

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May 27, 2012
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Neptune, I've looked at the windings up close and your explanation makes sense - there are 18 individual windings, so that means 6 sets of 3 as per the sequence in your explanation. What is less clear is where I'm meant to probe. Do I need to remove the insulation of the input wires or can I test from the end of the cable protruding from the axle. How about the output wires? I'm not even sure I can see those. Do I have to further de-construct the motor to access them?

As a new member of this forum, I'm overly aware at the amount of leeching I've done so far. I have requested much advice and help and really feel I need to follow this through to the end or I'll let you all down :)

As offered earlier, I can also make a video of the problem occurring if you think it would help.

Thanks so much everybody.
 

danielrlee

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 27, 2012
1,349
692
Westbury, Wiltshire
torquetech.co.uk
Glad you could understand my explanation. There is an additional test to do . Put your multimeter on ohms.If it has several ohms ranges, choose the highest one. Put one meter probe on any phase wire. Put the other probe on the metal outer case of the motor . The meter should give a very high reading, exactly the same reading as it gives when the probes are connected to nothing. If it passes this test, there are no earth faults on the windings.
I have tried this and can report no faults as described in your description (multimeter reads infinitely high).
 

neptune

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Jan 30, 2012
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No need to remove any insulation . All tests can be made from the ends of the wires protruding from the axle. A video might help. Do not hesitate to ask for help . We shall have helped you enough only when you ride into the sunset sporting a big grin.
 

danielrlee

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May 27, 2012
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Westbury, Wiltshire
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Right, I think I've got what is good news. I tried something that I know I shouldn't have, but did it anyway.

Without having the wheel mounted to anything, and with the hub cover off, I powered it up and tried a quick blip on the throttle. The central core of the hub (can't remember the propper name) spins freely, smoothly and fast, without any of the clicking heard previously. It sounded like an electric motor should :)
I only blipped the throttle for a fraction of a second and pre-wound the motor cable to minimise stress to the cable. It only span a few times, so no harm done.

This means that the motor's good right? Why does it not operate like this once mounted?
 

danielrlee

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May 27, 2012
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Westbury, Wiltshire
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Realising that I was probably pushing my luck, I tried the spin test again while holding the axle tight in my hand against the floor for longer and the WHEEL spins great. Throttling up slowly, I ran it for about a minute at full speed and it's pretty smooth. There is a different sort of clunking noise, but I think it's due to the wheel wobbling and the bearings not being loaded.

This thing looks like it should propel a bike pretty well.

Need I continue with the motor winding test now? Is this possibly an issue with the controller?
 

danielrlee

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May 27, 2012
1,349
692
Westbury, Wiltshire
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WTF? IT WORKS!!!!!!!! I feel like I've just invented the wheel :cool:

Following my last test, I reattached the wheel to the frame, powered it up and to my surprise, all is as it should be. Could there be a loose connection in the motor somewhere?

Hopefully my pannier rack arrives tomorrow and I can get this thing wired up properly. Can't bloody wait!

EDIT: Also, I just realised that I had the controller in 'restricted mode'. De-restricted, this thing looks like it might take off!
 
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jhruk

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May 13, 2009
318
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Excellent news - Well done!

It could have been a bad connection somewhere, or possibly a clutch problem.
Whatever, fingers crossed it doesn't happen again.