Project Q bike

[flecc]

I think what flecc is saying is that its not the wheel size that improves hillclimbing or torque, but having a quality motor suitably internally geared for the wheelsize: e.g. a quando type motor with lower internal gearing i.e. for 200-215 rpm in a 26" wheel giving same max speed of 15-16mph, may actually perform better overall than the 20" wheel, 260-280rpm 15-16mph Q (because they have equal gearing and torque for hills but a larger wheel always rolls more easily) - even if both bikes are equally chainwheel drivetrain geared for pedalling.

That's exactly it Stuart!

Now, what makes a good motor...? New thread for that I think .

Stuart.

Just look at the Quando motor pictures if it's performance that's wanted. Not necessarily the best for consistency though.
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[coops]

That's exactly it Stuart!

See, I'm learning! Glad I got it clear now ...

Just look at the Quando motor pictures if it's performance that's wanted. Not necessarily the best for consistency though.

... errr.. except you've lost me there flecc I'm afraid: I've seen the pics, but what do you mean by motor performance & consistency, and how are you differentiating?

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

... errr.. except you've lost me there flecc I'm afraid: I've seen the pics, but what do you mean by motor performance & consistency, and how are you differentiating?

Stuart.

See the wink smillie Stuart, I'm being diplomatic, consistency not referring to performance but other things that motors can exhibit.
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[coops]

Ok, thanks flecc - I feel a bit dim now, but non-verbal gestures can be more difficult to twig

Stuart.

 

[coops]

Are we getting any closer to guessing the "hidden element" of the Torq project the flecc?!

It occurrred to me that you might have somehow regeared the motor for lower speed, as Ian said before, except it was mooted before that 26" or 24" wheels may be involved, but at the time the design was not finalized... so....

24" or 26" wheels would surely involve either major frame surgery or the motor transplanted to a donor frame but you hinted that

Quote:
Originally Posted by coops
One thing though: when you say "radical", is that in the sense of major "bike surgery" not for the faint-hearted, or very clever and far-reaching but simple, or very expensive?

Only the words in red.

major bike surgery not involved?

So transplant or internal motor surgery then???

I'm going to start a guessing thread tomorrow! The world can wait no longer to hear the latest in radically clever ebike developments!

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

No, not even close Stuart, and a smaller wheel was ruled out very early. Weather permitting for testing,the T bike project release is so close it's not worth trying to guess. Post permitting, the final three parts arrive this morning so after a couple of hours work I may be on board this afternoon. Some areas have already been tested though, but the entirety will reveal the overall benefit.

As I promised, what I've done is truly unguessable, as I'm sure you'll agree when the shocks are revealed.

However, although it's radical, it's not unconventional! Work that one out!
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[coops]

No, not even close Stuart, and a smaller wheel was ruled out very early...

As I promised, what I've done is truly unguessable, as I'm sure you'll agree when the shocks are revealed.

However, although it's radical, it's not unconventional! Work that one out!

Oh well.... where's Sherlock Holmes when you need him? Eliminate the impossible, and whatever remains, however unlikely must be the truth? So, no change in wheel size - I thought that wouldn't be radical enough no regearing of the motor internally... "shocks" revealed eh? Something electrical eh? But that doesn't sound too conventional.... hmmmm!

Alright, I'm not guessing anymore! Honest! But does it still contain the two big surprises alluded to before, or has that changed - maybe they've multiplied?! And it still slows the Torq down a bit & assists its hill-climbing?

Can't wait!

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

It hasn't slowed it down.
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[coops]

Aha! So, does it... increase the Torq torque, perchance?!!

 

[coops]

Wait a minute, it could still have been regeared lower (except you seemed to say we weren't close on that one...) and it still wouldn't slow it down in practice, since the "maximum" for the torq (as it is) is rarely reached, if ever, anyway... oh, the plot thickens.... I give up

Hope your delivery arrives punctually so that the news also arrives sooner!

Weather forecast from midweek on looks a bit dodgy...

Stuart.

 

[slimtim]

small wheels/ big wheels anecdote

while cycling the number 5 route through birmingham on my 18 gear 700C comfort hybrid (sorry not pedelec yet) I was overtaken and left for dust by a gent in a suit and tie and shiny black shoes riding a classic folding Brompton with wheels slightly bigger than a shopping trolley. Ever since I have given people with smaller endowments more respect.

the project Q is an awesome commitment (I skipped the technical parts sorry) and must be useful to manufacturers. Do they know?

 

[flecc]

Aha! So, does it... increase the Torq torque, perchance?!!

Now then, mischief!

Post has arrived so I'm out of here now. With luck will be on board later in the day, but tomorrow it's rain, so I'll start on the web pages then. More testing necessary though.
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[flecc]

useful to manufacturers. Do they know?

They probably don't care Slimtim, and I can't blame them when the public demand the very inefficient fashion features and won't buy efficient bikes.

As I've remarked before, the mass market bikes are more inefficient now than in the whole history of the bike, simply because the public is stupid I have to say.

That's why of the two million bikes that are sold every year in this country, we don't see them being ridden. Many of them are sadly too useless for that.

Since we send our scrap steel to China, it would be environmentally better to pay the Chinese to ship newly produced bikes straight to the scrap recovery people over there and cut out all those wasteful miles.
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[JohnInStockie]

while cycling the number 5 route through birmingham on my 18 gear 700C comfort hybrid (sorry not pedelec yet) I was overtaken and left for dust by a gent in a suit and tie and shiny black shoes riding a classic folding Brompton with wheels slightly bigger than a shopping trolley.

SlimTim - this has also happened to me. I have seen a gent on a brompton keeping up with the traffic on a slightly downhill route with what seemed ease, whilst I was huffing and puffing.

It would be nice to know exactly what an efficient design for a bike is then wouldnt it?

John

 

[coops]

@John: I think rider input is making the difference there John, since the pedalbike facts are, as far as I know:

1) lighter (so not necessarily, but usually, smaller) wheels require less energy to accelerate, so lighter wheeled bikes accelerate better:

The adage is "a pound on the wheels equals two on the frame" meaning it takes twice the energy per unit weight to accelerate mass on a wheel than on the frame (including rider! - so reducing total wheel weight by say a full 2lb/~1kg would only give the same benefit as the rider losing 4lb/~2kg!) Very much a "performance" issue then, for when you're at your minimum weight already!

2) also lighter mass of bike & rider is easier to accelerate - as said above, follow the adage.

3) larger diameter wheels have less rolling resistance than smaller wheels: the main source of drag at lower speeds; high drag tyres (non-slicks e.g. knobbly MTB tyres or many tyres with too much unnecessary "ripply tread" or of a poor compound for rolling on road) will also seriously impede the top speed & efficiency at that speed). Also less bearing friction so more efficient.

Other efficiency losses from drivetrain, bearings etc. only make a big difference between bikes, I think, if the components are poor quality/design or poorly maintained. (all things being equal, the above factors are the main ones affecting efficiency, and rider weight & fitness probably the biggest! Still we're cycling to help stay/get fit & healthy, eh?! )

Appropriate gearing always is important of course, but I've only outlined some of the main variables between bikes affecting efficiency.

EDIT: So far as I can tell, the main gains in the Q bike were from adding appropriate gearing to pedal-assist the motor, and significantly reducing the rolling resistance (and puncture risk!) with the tyre change - highlighting the relatively larger benefit of lower rolling resistance tyres on 20", though similar tyres on larger wheel sizes would also give large benefits. Both changes do work together to increase both "rollability & pedalability" of the Q: taking even a relatively small load off the motor can significantly increase efficiency and range - some hub motor bikes give up to 50% extra range with just a little pedalling .

Stuart.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

So does that mean we can all go faster on our TORQS if i could i would speed freeks RULE? NIGEL PS i got up to 35mph wizzing down hill what is the record on this forum.

 

[coops]

Now then, mischief!

Mischief?! Moi?! Now, would I do that?!!

So, does your superconducting, hyperpowered, warp speed ion-plasma drive super-duper megatorque monster motor now have cooling fins? That would be cool!

Or a jet-propelled afterburner?!

Ok, I'll say no more: I wouldn't want to build up the hype and over-raise expectations

@Nigel: Yes: steeper/longer hill = faster! ;-) Seriously though, be careful! There are some top speed posts on the forum, but I'm not about to encourage competition in that particular area! ;-)

 

[flecc]

Or a jet-propelled afterburner?!

Only after baked beans.
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[coops]

Only after baked beans.

Now that's just adding fuel to the fire, isn't it?

 

[kraeuterbutter]

have not read the whole post.. very long..

but: if the motor is a burshless one, would it be not possible to use it in
star and triangle -configuration (is it called that in English language ?)

i mean:
in star-configuration rpms are by factor 1.7 slower, but torque will increase by factor 1.7 at same power

so:
using the bike in triangle-configuration for going 25km/h (most speed which is legal in most european countries)

and when there comes a hill -> you switch to star-configuration
(topspeed would be 14km/h, 1.7times more torque to the wheel at same power)

if you can disassamble the motor, and the windings are not glued, you can maybe manage to bring all 6 cables out of the motor.. you need to make a adapter, one for triangle one for star

but i fear, that most hub-motors are already using the star-configuration,so you would be only able to make it faster (loosing torque), not slower (getting more torque) this way

i have build already some smalle brushless-outrunner-motors (20g weight up to 250g weight, 50Watt power up to 2000Watt peak)
and using this triangle star-configurations is a easy thing which makes you have virutally 2motors in one

a controller that can switch electronically between this configurations would be ideal..
maybe some guy can try this with brushless-hubmotor