Pushbike Custom Conversion.

[Dynamic Position]

An alternative solution to own an e-bike which might give Cytronex some competition even though it is north of the border.

dc-bikes.com - Converting your bike to electric in the north east of scotland

 

[flecc]

I'm afraid not.

In fact it's a cheap, large and very heavy Chinese direct drive motor which won't begin to compare with the very much smaller, lighter and much more powerful Tongxin Nano motor in the Cytronex.

Unless used in a fairly flat area, this will be a poor performer compared with the great majority of e-bikes and kits, and the fluff on their technical page won't alter that. This cheap motor kit has been offered on ebay by various suppliers for some while now.
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[Dynamic Position]

Flecc,

Thanks for your comments, I personally was not impressed by dc-bikes offerings. The demononstration bike was kitted out with a couple of sealed light duty lead acid batteries and the wiring seemed a bit of a clutter on the frame!

My favourites at present are Kalkhoff or a Cytronex Kit (I am not impressed by the Trek bikes the Cytronex team use), I'm surprised that the Cytronex team can remain in business given the amount of time they have not had a product to sell. There seems to have been a dearth of information as to what will be available in 2009.

 

[flecc]

Yes there has been a big gap, but I think Tongxin could be a bit difficult to deal with for smaller suppliers, judging by how erratic supplies have been elsewhere.

Bikes using the Tongxin seem to be blighted one way or another. First there was the original Schwinn Pacific which failed due to a hopelessly wrong controller setup. Then the Sun bikes with tiny LiFePO4 batteries which quickly disappeared from the market. Next the Nano Brompton which was a fine bike but impossible to get hold of due to the creator's inability to build enough and which has also now disappeared, and now the vanishing Cytronex!
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[Dynamic Position]

Cytronex have the potential to fill a market niche if they can develop a kit and provide good technical support. If the product could be tailored to a diverse range of different bikes then the business could take off.
I think the market needs to be split into serious commuting bikes and powered bikes which could be lawfully used by school children who have passed their cylcling proficiency test. This would allow component costs to come down and the acceptance of cycling to become more widespread, especially in hilly locations. This would require a change in government legislation, but with economical, sustainable green transport now making the news headlines, the electric bicycle has a place when considered in the scheme of things.

 

[flecc]

I fully agree, I've always seen the 14 years lower age limit as silly and unnecessary. Once past 14 many kids already have their sights set on a moped and some are already riding various mopeds and trail bikes illegally anyway. We could easily attract them onto moderate power e-bikes by around 12 years old and that could keep many in the cycling habit.
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[Alex728]

what are the age limits (if any) elsewhere in the EU?

 

[flecc]

I have a chart of national regulations showing them to be only in the UK (14 years) and Sweden (15 years), but Sweden has somewhat different e-bike regs anyway, their speed limit being 30 kph instead of 25 kph and helmets are compulsory there.

All the other EU countries are listed as having no minimum age.
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[winterdog]

well saying that i have nearly ended up under a car because i zoned out 20 mph on my bike and not taking the corner in time. i do think manual onaly pedling is a bit more enviting of concentration.

 

[Barnowl]

Flecc,

Thanks for your comments, I personally was not impressed by dc-bikes offerings. The demononstration bike was kitted out with a couple of sealed light duty lead acid batteries and the wiring seemed a bit of a clutter on the frame!

My favourites at present are Kalkhoff or a Cytronex Kit (I am not impressed by the Trek bikes the Cytronex team use), I'm surprised that the Cytronex team can remain in business given the amount of time they have not had a product to sell. There seems to have been a dearth of information as to what will be available in 2009.

I also think it will be interesting to see what the Cytronex team are going to offer. I thought they did a great conversion with the Trek 7.3 and that it was a very good choice given it was aimed at the the commuter market, the bike had to take the electric kit, and that they wanted to produce a quality electric assisted bike that would cost less than £1K.
This time last year I'd never heard of Cytronex. I don't think anyone had till Presteigne last May. They are still selling products both on the cycling side of business and the dental side (Modern Times) and supporting existing Bike owners like me.

 

[flecc]

well saying that i have nearly ended up under a car because i zoned out 20 mph on my bike and not taking the corner in time. i do think manual onaly pedling is a bit more enviting of concentration.

I think it varies with circumstances though. When slogging uphill on a manual bike, up on the pedals, head down and sweating, there's far less attention paid to other traffic than an e-biker can give while riding uphill relaxed.

On my very powerful Q bike which demands very little pedal effort from me, I'm far safe since all my attention is able to be on what's going on around me.
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[Dynamic Position]

E-bicycles are inherently safer today by virtue of their design (and battery) weight, but safety is somewhat compromised by heavier road traffic and the lack of road maintenance! The power of e-bicycles is resitricted to 15mph for legal reasons and one should not cycle on the pavement, but many cyclists do (especially children)! I do not know if e-bicycle riders ever use the pavement because I have only once encountered an e-bike while commuting by pushbike.
I am guessing that if an e-bicycle were to be used on a dual pedestrian cycle route, the e-cyclist should limit their speed to conform to the speed of mobility scooters which could restrict riding to manual mode?
How many e-cyclists would slow down for a 10mph legal road speed limit?
What is required are dedicated cylcle paths similar to those in Belgium which are kept physically separated from the road.

 

[flecc]

I am guessing that if an e-bicycle were to be used on a dual pedestrian cycle route, the e-cyclist should limit their speed to conform to the speed of mobility scooters which could restrict riding to manual mode?

E-bikes can be used with the motor exactly like any other bike on dual mode paths and I do that much of the time around my area. It's the fact that it's electric assist only that means no compliance with mobility vehicle law, that applying to fully powered vehicles. Strictly speaking the e-bikes should be pedelec only under EU law to ensure they do only assist, but there's been no signs of any of the police taking any notice of my throttle control bikes when I pass them on the dual use path with runs past the local police station.
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[Mussels]

E-bicycles are inherently safer today by virtue of their design (and battery) weight, but safety is somewhat compromised by heavier road traffic and the lack of road maintenance! The power of e-bicycles is resitricted to 15mph for legal reasons and one should not cycle on the pavement, but many cyclists do (especially children)! I do not know if e-bicycle riders ever use the pavement because I have only once encountered an e-bike while commuting by pushbike.
I am guessing that if an e-bicycle were to be used on a dual pedestrian cycle route, the e-cyclist should limit their speed to conform to the speed of mobility scooters which could restrict riding to manual mode?
How many e-cyclists would slow down for a 10mph legal road speed limit?
What is required are dedicated cylcle paths similar to those in Belgium which are kept physically separated from the road.

The power is limited to 15mph but cyclists are not subject to speed limits* so why should they be expected to keep to any?
There are physically seperate cycle lanes in this country, I rode along about 6 miles of them this morning.

* Occasionally speed limits apply to cycles but these are very rare.

 

[johnp]

Yes there has been a big gap, but I think Tongxin could be a bit difficult to deal with for smaller suppliers, judging by how erratic supplies have been elsewhere.

Bikes using the Tongxin seem to be blighted one way or another. First there was the original Schwinn Pacific which failed due to a hopelessly wrong controller setup. Then the Sun bikes with tiny LiFePO4 batteries which quickly disappeared from the market. Next the Nano Brompton which was a fine bike but impossible to get hold of due to the creator's inability to build enough and which has also now disappeared, and now the vanishing Cytronex!
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Yes flecc you are right about it being difficult to deal with Tongxin,when you order you have to pay for the goods and then wait for delivery in my case both of my orders took 10 weeks but the worst part you can't get any info
as to when you can expect your order if you e-mail them to ask, you get no reply,so you have no information to pass to your customers.

Having said that they was not as much interest in buying the kit as there was talk about it even at virtually cost price

I may be bi'as but I still think the Tongxin is the best motor I have used (and I have had a few) I have now done over 5000mls with my 2 motors with no problems apart from the first conntroler that went wrong alfter the first 10mls
JOHN (Tongxin brompton,ezee torq,Tongxin diamondback.

 

[flecc]

Having said that they was not as much interest in buying the kit as there was talk about it even at virtually cost price

I may be bi'as but I still think the Tongxin is the best motor I have used (and I have had a few) I have now done over 5000mls with my 2 motors with no problems apart from the first conntroler that went wrong alfter the first 10mls
JOHN (Tongxin brompton,ezee torq,Tongxin diamondback.

I noticed that the interest seemed to die off a bit John, have you been stuck with any stock other than the Brompton kit you still had the other day?

They certainly seem to have come good as a motor after the initial teething troubles of a year or two ago, and still the best for being drag free and silent. Hopefully as Tongxin grow to cope with the demand their communications with suppliers will improve.
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[johnp]

I noticed that the interest seemed to die off a bit John, have you been stuck with any stock other than the Brompton kit you still had the other day?

They certainly seem to have come good as a motor after the initial teething troubles of a year or two ago, and still the best for being drag free and silent. Hopefully as Tongxin grow to cope with the demand their communications with suppliers will improve.
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Yes flecc I still have a Brompton kit only because I made myself a second Brompton and then took delivery of some 80mm motors so fitted one into the standard forks (works well)

JOHN

 

[Andrew harvey]

I've also bought kits from China. The lack of information as to were the bits are stems from the transport means.
Sending goods by surface means that box's are waiting for containers part empty going to the right place, I've had a delivery of Crystalyte motors, some years ago, take over 3 months, so 10 weeks is not to bad.
Tony Castles used to get small consignments sent by air mail, you have to pick the right quantities and hope that the sender sends them neatly packed to get the the best value for money. This did add to the cost of the Nano kit but from Tonys position it made more sense to get just what you wanted when you wanted it than have to pre-order on wait.
Johnp will now realise, having followed the same route I did, what a pain it can be trying to order things that people have an interest in. I still have a couple of Crystalytes left, 4011 and 409 motors.
I agree with the appraisal of the Tongzin kits, My wife has had one on her bike for 3 years now, nearly all the problems seemed to have revolved around the controllers they originally came with.

Johnp you say you have a Brompton kit, what does it consist of and would you sell it?

 

[b-twinelec]

dc-bikes

I'm afraid not.

In fact it's a cheap, large and very heavy Chinese direct drive motor which won't begin to compare with the very much smaller, lighter and much more powerful Tongxin Nano motor in the Cytronex.

Unless used in a fairly flat area, this will be a poor performer compared with the great majority of e-bikes and kits, and the fluff on their technical page won't alter that. This cheap motor kit has been offered on ebay by various suppliers for some while now.
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Hello Flecc,

I am the the owner of dc-bikes which I just started 2 months ago.
Our purpose at dc-bikes is to show people you can have an electric bike for less tan £ 1k. If in addition you can reuse something you already own, I think that's even better for the environment and for my clients wallet.

My first kit was indeed heavy (7 kg front wheel). I am now offering the lighter Mini motor from Goldenmotor (4 kg). I am going to markets, presenting the bike, having people trying it and did not have bad feed back about the wiring. I can understand this is a matter of personal taste though.
What you called fluff on the website I think was just my enthusiasm for the product which I think is ace.
I also offer lithium ion, but what I'm telling my clients is that they don't need to go direct for lithium ion batteries. They can initially choose a relatively cheap lead acid and make sure they like the bike and they use it. If they use it a lot and appreciate it, then it justifies a battery upgrade... if not it will have limited impact on their expense.
I had a quick look at Cytronex website and was quite impressed by it. We are not in the same market! The bikes are at about £ 1000. At dc-bikes we believe you can have the pleasure of riding electric cheaply.

The kits are not the top end, but there are not the cheapest as well. We take on the role of checking the kits, truing the wheels, rejecting the faulty parts and fit the kits for our clients. We take on the risk: will it fit, will it arrive damaged etc...etc... and we offer a one year warranty on the kits and installation works. ie we remove most of the risk of buying cheap from our client.

We have still to post on the website clients comments, and those are pretty positive! We are new in business and we do not pretend having the knowledge you have accumulated. But we are honest about the product, about what we know and don't know, about what we can and cannot do and our aim is to have satisfied customers who would be ready to recommend us.

dc-bikes doesn't exist out of greed or looking for profit. It exists because we are enthusiastic that there may be a good way forward here for transportation.

You will certainly see me in this forum asking for questions... I don't intent to use this forum to promote my business but to help me progressing in the knowledge of electric bike.

Kind regards,

b-twin elec

 

[flecc]

Hi b-twin elec

I agree that there is a place for bikes in all price ranges and of all types, my post above being to correct any impression of equivalence of your kits and the Cytronex. As you appreciate, they are very different.

Your choice of a direct drive motor does limit you somewhat, the market having swung firmly behind internally geared motors with their smaller size, low weight and their better low speed torque for hilly areas. That said, direct drives have their own advantages, smooth quiet running and simplicity, and you at least have a different product rather than the stream of "me too" designs that are so common in our field.

The quality of output you intend is at least as important as the product itself and I wish you well with your aims.
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