Shock warning! Should we ask for Registration?

[Blew it]

Flecc, why don't you lodge your proposal with the government. Surely, If your proposal is so essential to reducing bicycle theft, HMG will leap at the opportunity to put it into statute.

Would that not be a better test of it's feasability, instead of posting on a little read forum representing a tiny minority of British cyclists.

 

[flecc]

Flecc, why don't you lodge your proposal with the government. Surely, If your proposal is so essential to reducing bicycle theft, HMG will leap at the opportunity to put it into statute.

Would that not be a better test of it's feasability, instead of posting on a little read forum representing a tiny minority of British cyclists.

I'm happy about it's feasibility, but I certainly wouldn't put it forward with such strong opposition. I did expect this opposition of course but was just interested to see the reaction. I doubt government reaction would in any way measure it's feasibility for reducing theft, since they would probably reject it on the basis of it's unpopularity and possible effect on cycling levels. It would definitely affect sales.

For me this was just an interesting exercise, but as said earlier, with both cycling and theft growing together and the latter already getting politically embarrassing, eventually something will have to happen. Since all the other things tried like bike marking have failed and don't prevent the theft in the first place, treating them in a more motor vehicle like manner may come about eventually.

There's precedent. The large numbers of S class bikes in Germany and Switzerland are all registered and plated. The three US states of Michigan, North Dakota and Pennsylvania have registration of all e-bikes, and as said before, Guernsey once had all bicycles registered and plated at the time of a theft problem.

 

[Wildswimmer Pete]

I'm totally against compulsory insurance because like anything proposed by the Corporate State, it's the thin edge of a very nasty wedge. Compulsory number plates and "registration fees" would increase until e-bikes in particular would end up as electric mopeds. What happens if e-bikes become to require some sort of licence? - after 45 years biking I lost my motorcycle licence after a stroke.

What does need addressing is that e-bike batteries represent half of the value of most e-bikes, and thieves will steal batteries when a 36v lithium pack costs over £300. Mind you this does work the other way - if the rider removes his battery when leaving his bike would a prospective thief consider stealing an e-bike with no battery? When parking my e-bike I thread the cable lock through one of the wheels but also a moulding on the battery.

 

[flecc]

I'm totally against compulsory insurance because like anything proposed by the Corporate State, it's the thin edge of a very nasty wedge. Compulsory number plates and "registration fees" would increase until e-bikes in particular would end up as electric mopeds. What happens if e-bikes become to require some sort of licence? - after 45 years biking I lost my motorcycle licence after a stroke.

I can never understand way you and others claim this. There is no registration fee and all e-vehicles are VED charge (road fund tax) exempt.

The clear evidence is that governments want to encourage cycling and avoid putting things in the way of that. For example, they've resisted all the well meaning attempts to make cycle helmets compulsory, even blocking a move to make it the the law for children. That is not government that will make rider testing compulsory.

 

[Wildswimmer Pete]

There is no registration fee

Yet

For example, they've resisted all the well meaning attempts to make cycle helmets compulsory

Because the government know full well that making cycle helmets compulsory would deter the majority from cycling. I do have two cycle helmets (one full-face) but I dislike them, if I'm compelled to wear a helmet I'll simply take the other option - my bus pass. Costs me nowt to use it.

 

[Tinker]

Assuming registration in some form was to be introduced WHO WOULD POLICE IT?
We (they) do not even police car users correctly, every day I see countless drivers using their mobiles. There are thousands of UN-taxed & unlicensed drivers on the road as it is,

 

[Wildswimmer Pete]

all e-vehicles are VED charge (road fund tax) exempt.

But only at the whim of the government of the day. Pedelecs don't qualify for VED because they aren't motor vehicles. Electric mopeds are classed as "mopeds" but like other electric motor vehicles they currently pay zero VED - however they have to have a registration number, the rider has to be insured and licenced and required to wear a helmet. These money-grubbing wasters of a government would change that if they thought they could get away with it.

Ironically the old Raleigh RM1 moped I rode in my teens didn't make much more than the 14mph my e-bike reaches.

 

[Scimitar]

In four pages I don't know if anyone pointed out the major difference between bicycles (even e-bikes) and motorcycles/cars. It's easy for a thief to cart a bike up the stairs and into his garret to strip down for bits to flog down the pub/ebay/craigslist/etc.
I know the selling for parts point was raised and Flecc dismissed it, but in my opinion it's a major reason why bikes go missing. I can think of several recent major busts of bike-theft rings where the houses of the raided were full of bits of bikes. They had a stripping operation going and don't let's kid ourselves - once you have something like that in operation it can be very lucrative indeed, with lots of small items going into the postal system every day to all parts of the country. Given that most parts of a bicycle are untraceable, I don't see registration making the slightest bit of difference to that.

 

[Wildswimmer Pete]

What about Datatag? When I bought my GSXR750 ten years ago I bought a Datatag kit and the one-off registration fee was £25. Apparently the police have special hand-held scanners to read the microdots and Datatg recommended applying microdots to all components including stuff like carburettors and starter motors. Datatagging is well proven as a deterrent. If I remember correctly Datatag do kits for pedal cycles.

I understand Smart Water is something similar.

 

[flecc]

The police have been heavily criticised for their failures to use smartwater etc in detection, so it's unlikely these tracing method will succeed while police resources and deployment stand as they are.

 

[smudger1956]

My ramblings and IMHO....Registration would create a large database which planners could use to improve the cycling network throughout the country.
But, this database may be examined if VED revenue streams start to diminish, due to the uptake of 'green' transport,and we all know where that would lead.
I think I have already mentioned, the Government and Councils should do more to increase bike security, I would gladly pay a small charge for that service knowing my bike is a secure as it can be.

 

[flecc]

To those who think government would grab the chance to add taxes, ultimately yes, if e-vehicles become a major replacement for other taxed motor forms, since the revenue has to come from somewhere.

But in the UK that's far into the distance, e-biking is miniscule at present and even if it miraculously doubled it would still scarcely be noticed. E-cars have already failed in the market and there's no prospect of them taking off large scale. The costs of introduction, administration and enforcement of e-biking taxation would far exceed any possible income.

The proof is that bicycles with tiny add on motors did used to have registration, number plates, paid road fund tax, insurance and rider motor cycle licence and testing. That was all so much trouble that it was completely removed for the newer generation of cycle motors in the early 1980s.

 

[Wildswimmer Pete]

But in the UK that's far into the distance, e-biking is miniscule at present and even if it miraculously doubled it would still scarcely be noticed.

Never say never!

E-cars have already failed in the market and there's no prospect of them taking off large scale.

Been listening to Radio 4 recently? It's been mooted that electric cars should be designed to use a common battery pack that can be exchanged for a "full" one at service stations.

The costs of introduction, administration and enforcement of e-biking taxation would far exceed any possible income.

Where governments are involved, the means will always be found to screw even more taxes from the proles.

The proof is that bicycles with tiny add on motors did used to have registration, number plates, paid road fund tax, insurance and rider motor cycle licence and testing.

Don't forget that immediately after WWII petrol was rationed, cars were a luxury that few could afford, while motorcyles were in short supply. Many people lived a couple of miles from their work which is why cycling was so popular, and public transport was mostly nationalised and subsidised.

That was all so much trouble that it was completely removed for the newer generation of cycle motors in the early 1980s.

There weren't any cyclemotors in the 1980s - just "mopeds" like the FS1 which were 50cc motorcyles with the pedals locked to act as footrests. Early in the '80s the requirement for pedals to be fitted was abolished and "mopeds" came to mean any 50cc machine limited to a max speed of 30mph.

 

[flecc]

Been listening to Radio 4 recently? It's been mooted that electric cars should be designed to use a common battery pack that can be exchanged for a "full" one at service stations.

I've been following that Israeli-Renault collaboration from the beginning years ago, but it has a very limited future. It doesn't address all the other problems of e-cars, only the range one and only for a small country like Israel. No-one will invest in a one-make solution in a major market, and getting all the car makers to use a standard battery pack ain't going to happen as history shows only too well. Renault were happy to take part since it was a way of also developing for the rest of the world conventional e-car market. I don't know if you're are aware of it, but Renault and Nissan are effectively one company, the Renault Fluence e-car is just the much trumpeted Nissan Leaf e-car with a saloon body to allow the battery change option for Israel.

There weren't any cyclemotors in the 1980s -

Yes there were, either add-on motors or complete bikes, electric and petrol, and mopeds have nothing to do with this. That's why the 1983 EAPC regulations were formulated, scrapping charges, with further measures in the 1987 Road Traffic Act.

You are still ignoring both the facts that government scrapped the opportunity to continue to tax these, and the tiny size of the e-bike market. I haven't said never to a larger market, but it's decades away at least. We'll have to have a complete turnover of the current car driving generations before it can happen.

As someone who was in the trade selling and fitting various cyclemotors from the beginning well over 60 years ago and who has maintained interest in all types of them ever since, I'd like nothing better than to see them really take off, but I am realistic enough to see the true situation.

 

[Wildswimmer Pete]

Yes there were, either add-on motors or complete bikes, electric and petrol, and mopeds have nothing to do with this. That's why the 1983 EAPC regulations were formulated, scrapping charges, with further measures in the 1987 Road Traffic Act.

I'd like to know where. In all the years I've been on the road I've never seen a cyclemoter on the road, and I live in a reasonably populous part of the country (outskirts of Liverpool).

You are still ignoring both the facts that government scrapped the opportunity to continue to tax these, and the tiny size of the e-bike market.

When precisely? When the Thatcher government zero-rated VED for all electric vehicles (note zero-rated, not exempted)?

As someone who was in the trade selling and fitting various cyclemotors from the beginning well over 60 years ago and who has maintained interest in all types of them ever since, I'd like nothing better than to see them really take off, but I am realistic enough to see the true situation.

I was involved doing specialist work for the motorcycle trade, although on account of illness I do very little now, just a as a self-financing hobby. One of my local traders (now deceased) specialised in vintage motorcycles and he'd never to my knowledge dealt with cyclemotors. Mopeds, yes.

 

[flecc]

I'd like to know where. In all the years I've been on the road I've never seen a cyclemoter on the road, and I live in a reasonably populous part of the country (outskirts of Liverpool).

Add on cyclemotors were sold in large quantities from 1949 through to the 1960s and at one time over one million were registered on British roads. They gradually disappeared over time, but the complete VeloSolex motorised bicycle continued in production until well into the 1980s.

When precisely? When the Thatcher government zero-rated VED for all electric vehicles (note zero-rated, not exempted)?

You're mixing up motor vehicles with e-bikes which are not classed as motor vehicles but as bicycles. They are exempted VED by the EAPC regulations of 1983, nothing to do with zero rating of any motor vehicles which have completely separate legislation

I was involved doing specialist work for the motorcycle trade, although on account of illness I do very little now, just a as a self-financing hobby. One of my local traders (now deceased) specialised in vintage motorcycles and he'd never to my knowledge dealt with cyclemotors. Mopeds, yes.

Once again you are mixing up the issue with mopeds which are not related to bicycle motors in any way. Mopeds of all kinds are capable of self power alone, but cyclemotors are assist motors. The mopeds you mentioned earlier were a more modern continuation of the Autocycles that were made in the 1930s, '40s and '50s by Excelsior and others, and which remain registered and taxed if road used today as a few are. Cyclemotors were almost all add-ons for ordinary bicycles and were mainly handled by cycle dealers and rarely the motorcycle trade. There is still at least one of them on the market which is sold online. Here's three examples of the previous ones, the Power Pak, the Cyclemaster and the BSA Winged Wheel, all very big sellers in their day. Liverpool would have had loads of them buzzing around in their heyday of the 1950s, just like everywhere else.

They tended to disappear from 1960 onwards as increasing affluence made scooters and similar affordable, but a few cyclemotors hung around since they were an easy way to get a full motor cycle licence. Testers weren't very stringent when testing riders on them. To this day there a number of specialist websites all about various cyclemotors and even some enthusiast clubs.
.

 

[Scimitar]

When I was a kid in the late 50s into the early 60s I recall seeing cyclemotors ppuuuuttttting around, but not that many of them and the last one I saw was simply dumped on waste ground as if the owner got fed up with it.

 

[flecc]

That was eventually the fate of nearly all of them Dave, but also of all the early two strokes which were horribly unreliable up until later decades. The peak number of cyclemotors was reached in the middle of the 1950s, from when the decline followed as I've described above. Of course their popularity in the late 1940s and the 1950s wasn't because they were especially good, it was just because there was little else with a motor that could be bought then.

 

[rog_london]

When I was a kid in the late 50s into the early 60s I recall seeing cyclemotors ppuuuuttttting around, but not that many of them and the last one I saw was simply dumped on waste ground as if the owner got fed up with it.

It might depend on your precise age, as Flecc has hinted. Also where you lived! My father bought a Cyclemaster as a kit some time around 1948 and fitted it to an old boneshaker - it used to convey him - most of the time - from Salford where we lived then to his teacher training college in Oldham.

It was the sort of thing the working man might be able to afford - my dad was a meter reader for the electricity board while doing his teacher training - and also as Flecc says they were available, a major consideration at the time. I can remember how almost everything was in very short supply - not least the money to pay for it.

I made that journey with him a few times on the crossbar! I'd not have been much more than four or five years old. In one of those odd quirks of long-term memory I still have in my mind the picture of the college cycle park being very well populated with Cyclemasters. Lunch time was always busy with people doing maintenance. No point in having decent metalwork facilities on hand and not making good use of them, after all.

Rog.

 

[flecc]

as Flecc says they were available, a major consideration at the time. I can remember how almost everything was in very short supply - not least the money to pay for it.

Indeed. During the war almost all useful cars and motorbikes had been requisitioned for war use and destroyed, and public transport had suffered a decade of no investment and war losses, so most people walked or cycled to work. Most of what we produced during the late 1940s and 1950s had to go for export to pay off our huge war debts, cars and motorbikes could only be bought by essential users and even bikes were severely rationed. Since those exports were to the USA which had no use for cyclemotors, they at least were freely available for fitting to all the old pre-war bikes that people owned.

And as Rog says, people couldn't have afforded new motor vehicles if they had been available. A working mans wages just about covered keeping the wolf from the door in those days. The odd new very basic single gear bike we received for sale from time to time cost about £12, two weeks wages. That's equal to the cheapest bike now costing about £600, but we can buy an 18 gear cheap bike for only about £100 or less now, or a quite good quality 21 gear one for about £300.

Cost were really high back then, no supermarkets, discount or superstores, just higher priced local shops and corner shops. There was resale price maintenance until 1964 making discounting of manufacturer's fixed prices actionable at law. We didn't have VAT which has typically been around 17.5%, then it was purchase tax at 33.3% on most goods and 66.6% on luxury goods.