Shock warning! Should we ask for Registration?

[Scimitar]

Cost were really high back then, no supermarkets, discount or superstores, just higher priced local shops and corner shops. There was resale price maintenance until 1964 making discounting of manufacturer's fixed prices actionable at law. We didn't have VAT which has typically been around 17.5%, then it was purchase tax at 33.3% on most goods and 66.6% on luxury goods.

Yes, I well recall the first branch of Safeways opening up the road from us around 1964 - also my mother turning round to my father as they came out and saying something along the lines of, "And that's all it cost for a week's worth!"
I also recall my folks (especially my father) turning the air blue about purchase tax and how we could have had this, that or the other if we weren't taxed to death.
Aye, it was an education back then

 

[mike killay]

Well, having given it a long time to mature, my point of view has come round to Flecc's.
At the moment, tell the Police you have had a bike stolen and they know that it is a waste of time trying to circulate details simply because to the non enthusiast, a bike is a bike.
If they had a number plate and log book, there would be something concrete to circulate, something to make casual theft non productive, something to make resale more difficult.
As to punishments, well we will have to accept each other's point of view.I think heavy punishments are called for. Even if only for revenge!

 

[smudger1956]

Well, having given it a long time to mature, my point of view has come round to Flecc's.
At the moment, tell the Police you have had a bike stolen and they know that it is a waste of time trying to circulate details simply because to the non enthusiast, a bike is a bike.
If they had a number plate and log book, there would be something concrete to circulate, something to make casual theft non productive, something to make resale more difficult.
As to punishments, well we will have to accept each other's point of view.I think heavy punishments are called for. Even if only for revenge!

I can just see the Daily Mail headlines..... Samantha Clutterbuck ( aged 10 ) receives a fixed penalty notice for dirty number plate.

 

[flecc]

I can just see the Daily Mail headlines..... Samantha Clutterbuck ( aged 10 ) receives a fixed penalty notice for dirty number plate.

Exemption applies of course. For example, the year 2000 pavement cycling spot fines regulation cannot be applied to anyone under the age of 16. The age from which bike registration applied could be fixed a bit lower, since a legislative precedent exists in the 14 years minimum for riding an e-bike. 14 years is also the age at which the young cease to be children for a wide variety of legal purposes but become classified as young persons instead.

The bulk of the theft problem is not childrens bikes of course.

 

[flecc]

As to punishments, well we will have to accept each other's point of view.I think heavy punishments are called for. Even if only for revenge!

I've no objection to that clear thinking Mike, since retribution does require an adequately harsh sentence. That does tend to exclude most chances of reform though, and this is where most get confused, thinking it's possible to both harshly punish and reform. It's not, it's a choice.

 

[mike killay]

Well Flecc,
I abide by Alcoholics Anonymous who state that you cannot change a person, only that person themselves and they will only change when they hit rock bottom. I guess the AA know what they are talking about. They believe in bringing the bottom up to meet the alcoholic.
They call it tough love.

 

[flecc]

Addiction of any sort is a very different matter though Mike.

As I pointed out much earlier in this thread, it's a fact that savage sentencing has resulted in savage reactions, greatly increased crime levels and an eight times multiplication of the prison population. It's doubled in just a 17 year period. Each one of the 89,000 prisoners costs us over £1000 a week, and today we have a new Home Secretary appointed who wants to have even harsher sentencing and build many more prisons. Lunacy, when the prison bill is already over £5 billions each year.

When criminals received sentences less than 5 years for quite serious offences, they held their hands up to it and came quietly. The trend to 15 to 25 year sentences and longer was met with them using guns to avoid capture, since they obviously had nothing to lose by doing that, either way it was a very long stretch so worth a try.
.

 

[mike killay]

Flecc,
I think that to go on with this will only cause us both problems.
I respect your views, just don't agree with them!
Mike

 

[Scimitar]

Well Flecc,
I abide by Alcoholics Anonymous who state that you cannot change a person, only that person themselves and they will only change when they hit rock bottom. I guess the AA know what they are talking about. They believe in bringing the bottom up to meet the alcoholic.
They call it tough love.

You're overlooking the thickness of crims aspect and the "I won't get caught" scenario. Savage sentences have never been a deterrent - look at the crime rate in the 17th, 18th and early 19th centuries, where theft was punishable by hanging. Plenty did it, plenty were hanged and still others carried on doing it.
Australia was discovered at the most convenient time, really.

 

[Tinker]

and today we have a new Home Secretary appointed who wants to have even harsher sentencing and build many more prisons. Lunacy,

Flecc, I wouldn't worry, he's just been brought in to 'talk the talk' at the party conference by an inept prime-minister who cannot even re-shuffle his own government, I gather IDS refused to move.
As for bike registration I would suggest that there are simply too many sitting in sheds, garages complete or in bits, etc what part would be registered? I know a lot of cycle-cross riders have different sets of wheels depending on the conditions. Would a BMX be a child or an Adults?
A few years ago we had to register electric disability scooters (no cost) Now these are rather like the e-bikes being made in China, Taiwan etc. Some branded some not, some like mine built from a number of parts. Upon asking I was told to just enter any serial number I could find 'it doesn't matter'. I get nice new 0 rate tax disks every year & even though every year I send 2 back as I no longer have the machines I still get new tax-disks arrive.

 

[flecc]

Yes, the human failings will always tend to wreck any attempts at improvement in any sphere. Such schemes can work though, but to do so it's essential that the populace believes in them.

As that great lawyer, the late Quentin Hogg once remarked, "Any law that does not have the support of at least 80% of the population is bad law".

 

[smudger1956]

Flecc,
I think that to go on with this will only cause us both problems.
I respect your views, just don't agree with them!
Mike

Or..from where I come from.
I do not agree with your view, but I would willingly fight to the death to maintain your right to express it.

 

[Patrick]

But it wouldn't be a universal system unless the registration of all bicycles including children's bikes was compulsory. If there was an exception for children of 14 and under (as has been suggested) then there would still be unregistered bikes on the road so there would be legal market for unregistered bikes. All the thief would have to do is take the number plate off and say that bike used to belong to his son/daughter/friend/nephew/neighbour's kid. The purchaser could then pass it on to his child or register it as a newly acquired bike.

Whether or not the market in unregistered bike would be big enough to undermine the theft deterrent value of the registration system is an open question.

The other big question mark is over this proposal is whether the benefits would outweigh the costs. The case seems clear for bikes costing thousands of pounds but according to bikebiz.com according to bikebiz.com the average cost of a bike in the UK last year was £242, cycleguard quotes £24 a year to insure such a bike in my postcode. Halfords and Argos both have bikes for £80. In these cases a £10 a year charge could considerably add to the long term cost of ownership.

 

[flecc]

Agreed Patrick, but as I pointed out early in the thread, the idea was not intended as a cure-all, rather as a way to drastically reduce the incidence of theft. I don't think the child market for "full size" bikes is large enough to prevent that happening, particularly in these days when so many parents wont let their children ever cycle at all.

I don't think the ratio of annual cost to bike ownership relevant. Many decades ago we used to have paid for dog licences at a time when puppies were given away, but that never seemed to worry anyone or deter ownership. Also, it's a matter of some amusement in the motor trade that the after market in accessories and gadgets is often greatest on the cheaper and older cars, tarting them up. Equally, VED (Road Fund Tax) is the same for a given class of car, now matter how old and cheap it was.

 

[mike killay]

Well, as I say, I have come around to Flecc's thinking.
I was imagining going to a Police Station and telling them bike has been stolen.
'Well, it's brown, no, a sort of bronze brown, it has a funny shaped frame, but it's a man's bike. It has a black bag on the back fitted above the black battery holder. It's got 'Tonaro' written on it somewhere and 'Shimano' and 'Rock' There is a number stamped on the frame, I think it's under the handlebars'

Compared with. 'My Tonaro electric bike, number xyz 123 has just been stolen' (easy to remember, easy to circulate the description. Also ANPR machines could look out for it)

 

[M_B]

Impractical to enforce, and unlikely to be enforced. Laws that ain't enforced are a bad idea in my view, better not to have them in the first place.

 

[mike killay]

Impractical to enforce, and unlikely to be enforced. Laws that ain't enforced are a bad idea in my view, better not to have them in the first place.

Why is it impractical?
A bike, like a motor vehiclle, displaying a number can be identified.
Any attempt to sell it without a log book will be very difficult.
Anyway, you say it is impractical, prove it, let us hear your reasons.

 

[Tinker]

One problem I can see is which bit of the bike would be the registered part? expensive road bikes are custom made, frames purchased from one maker, chainsets from another & often more than one pair of wheels, pedals with clip and pedals without for commuting etc, the list goes on.
A thought occurred to me that with expensive Motorhomes & caravans Trackers are being fitted that can be activated in the event of theft, perhaps we could 'chip' our bikes.

 

[Patrick]

Why is it impractical?
A bike, like a motor vehiclle, displaying a number can be identified.
Any attempt to sell it without a log book will be very difficult.
Anyway, you say it is impractical, prove it, let us hear your reasons.

There are some crucial differences between bikes and motor vehicles:

No one under 16 can drive a motor vehicle on a public highway, all motor vehicle on the road have someone they can be legally registered to which makes it possible to make it compulsory for all motor vehicles to be registered. Bikes are ridden on the roads by minors, if they were exempted from the registration regulations then there would be unregistered bikes on the road. So it would not be enough to identify bikes without a number, only bikes without a number that are actually being ridden by an adult would a sign of an offense being committed.

There are very few retailers that sell cars sealed in factory boxes, bikes are frequently sold that way. Either the retailers would be forced to register every bike, which could significantly add to cost (for example a £10 registration fee and £5 to cover the cost of registering and fixing a plate would add 15% to the cost of a £100 bike), or the registration system would have to be easy for customers to register their own bikes.

There would have to be an easy way for, say, a 13 year old to register his bikes so that he can carry on riding them when he turns 14, or for someone to register a second hand bike that was previously used by a minor. Registering a bike built from new and used components would also have to be cheap and easy.

All in all the law would be impractical because to identify bikes breaching it the cyclist would have to be stopped, and if the bike didn't have a registration plate the rider's age would have to be determined. It would not be a simple case a spotting vehicles without plates.

Buying an unregistered bikes and then registering it yourself would be routine, so it would nowhere near as difficult to sell a bike without a log book as it would be to sell a motor vehicle without one.

 

[flecc]

Some points opposed to your negativity Patrick:

It's probably true that a huge proportion of the myriad of laws passed in modern times are not enforced, relying only on compliance by the majority, which they do exercise.

If an adult sized bike is anywhere in the public arena without plates it can arouse the suspicion of PCSOs, NEOs and PEOs. It is no more necessary for the rider to be present for that than it is for a motor vehicle.

Alternatively, the law could apply to all bikes over a specified small child size one when used in the public arena, with parent or guardian responsibility. They are already responsible in law for the child and it's conduct.

Of course retailers would be responsible for the initial registration. Cycle dealers had no problems registering and plating the existing bikes they added cyclemotors to that they sold in during the 1940s, '50s and '60s. I know because I did it then.

As observed before, the annual costs are immaterial as an objection to the scheme working, most ownership is subject to taxation either up front or annual, and sometimes both.

Three states in the USA have e-bike registration and eight states require driver licensing as well for them. Germany and Switzerland have registration of some e-bike classes without rider licencing or identification. Japan has registration of all ordinary bicycles and many other countries have done previously. The reason for dropping that has always been the cost of administration exceeding the income, never difficulty in enforcement or lack of compliance. However, the scale of theft in the UK now is so costly that registration would produce substantial savings in many other areas, public and private.