Torq Ammeter/Voltmeter

Ian

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 1, 2007
1,333
0
Leicester LE4, UK.
A few weeks ago I fitted an ammeter to my Torq in order to monitor current consumption from the battery, mainly out of personal interest but also as an aid to minimising power consumption and therefore maximising range.

The instrument itself is a blue LED 3 digit meter in a somewhat crudely weatherproofed box on the handlebars with a shunt resistor mounted directly on the battery connector, the shunt being simply a short stainless steel bar with a resistance of approximately 0.75 mOhms or 0.75/1000 ohms or virtually a short circuit!
The meter box also contains a 24V regulator feeding a DC-DC converter with a 5V isolated output for the meter and a switch which enables it to measure battery voltage as well. It was carefully calibrated against a professionally calibrated reference instrument.

The current consumption figures shown by the meter are in many ways what was expected but in other ways are quite surprising. No doubt those users who have Drain Brains or Watts Up devices will be aware of the following, but others may find the findings interesting, and maybe of help in maximising range.


In restricted mode the maximum current draw is 17A (600W) but this only occurs between about 9 and 11 mph, the controller limiting the current outside of this range. The motor will continue to draw current up to about 17mph but at this speed it is negligible. As torque is proportional to current this shows how the artificial restriction of the motor limits severely limits its usable torque/speed range.

In de-restricted mode the maximum current is a whopping 22A (800W) from less than 10mph to over 20mph and this current is maintained continuously during a hard climb, no wonder that some users have had battery cut-out problems.

Tiny variations in the throttle position produce large variations in the current consumption.

With no wind on a smooth level surface and without pedalling a miserly 1A will give a speed of 7mph, but doubling the speed requires just over 4 times the current. It's pleasing that these practical results are almost exactly what theory predicts.

A current of 2-3 amps makes pedalling at 14 mph pleasantly easy.

 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,817
30,381
Thanks for this Ian, and as you say, it shows exactly why the batteries get such a tough time on these higher powered eZee models. It's good that the latest one can take it though.

There's no doubt the high motor gearing on the Torq is very unforgiving, leading to the way the high drain continues into higher speeds, though I'm surprised you still found such a high reading at 20 mph.

One thing you've shown that I'm very pleased with, the way in which restriction cripples the performance, something I've always maintained. I've always thought restriction on the Torq a bit pointless in one sense, since it would be better to have a bike geared for the 15 mph in the first place. The Quando is just this with the same motor, but having a far better motorised performance than the restricted Torq, with much better acceleration, hill climbing and even speed.
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joab

Pedelecer
Hi Ian,
Good feedback, I discovered the same. I have the EZEE conversion kit for the North American market so my speed limit is 20 mph. However if use full speed I need to reload my battery after about 12 miles (flat road) to avoid the orange light. About 2 months ago I changed my behaiver on the bike and I now cruise at about +- 13mph and without any problem I’m getting 25 miles, no orange light at all. :)
Kind regards,
Jo
 

imellor

Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2006
67
4
One thing you've shown that I'm very pleased with, the way in which restriction cripples the performance, something I've always maintained.
I had always assumed that the restriction was done via the controller in an intelligent way. ie if you are climbing a hill in restricted mode and your speed is under 15mph the controller would keep on applying the power (current). What actually happens in practice is that you go up the same hill slower in restricted mode, even though both speeds (restricted and unrestricted) are less than 15mph.

The Ammeter experiment seems to clearly show this.

Ian
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,817
30,381
This is what I meant Ian, taken from the original post:

In restricted mode the maximum current draw is 17A (600W) but this only occurs between about 9 and 11 mph, the controller limiting the current outside of this range.

In de-restricted mode the maximum current is a whopping 22A (800W) from less than 10mph to over 20mph
That's a minimum power loss of 25%, a loss which rises above 11 mph, to probably over 33%. For me that's crippled, especially since so much of the Torq's natural climb ability is at over 12 mph and it's why I scrapped the restricted mode at the outset the moment I realised how badly if affected the bike.
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Haku

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 20, 2007
339
4
Gloucestershire
Interesting results, does that mean if you went 1 mile on full throttle on the flat it'll drain the battery more than if you used half-throttle?


Since derestricting my Urban Mover I've had a lot of fun, it especially helps when going uphill in first gear because it means I have uninterrupted power, whereas before the power would cut out and I'd be fighting the motor if I pedalled just a little bit over 15mph, then once speed drops below 15mph the motor kicks in - an unpleasant stop-start-stop-start type situation.
I've not really noticed any signficant drop in battery power after riding usual routes but there is some, and this summer I will ride it one time until the battery is fully exhausted as I haven't yet managed it which I take as a good sign I'll be enjoying my usual routes with good power for a long time yet.
 

Tiberius

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 9, 2007
919
1
Somerset
Hi guys,

This is all exactly in line with my experience; I have a Torq 1 with a Cycle Analyst fitted and no restriction. The CA will show, among many other things, the peak current taken, and it regularly comes out at 18A. It may well be possible to get it to show actual current, but I've got it set to show Watts (power drain rather than current drain) as I go along.

The Torq really likes to be at 12 mph or above. Below that the motor gets less efficient, so if you give it full throttle to get up a hill slowly, that is when it will draw max current. When hill climbing I will often see a power drain indicated of well over 500 W. 18A at 33 V is 594 Watts so that is consistent.

Of course, because the motor is not at its efficient speed, the power delivered to the road is much less than that 594 W.

Nick
 

Ian

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 1, 2007
1,333
0
Leicester LE4, UK.
Most of the time time I use my Torq in restricted mode, the restriction only coming off for serious hill climbing or the need to beat bad weather. The bike is obviously a far better performer de-restricted but it's certainly no slouch with the restrictor on and I fear that excessive use de-restricted could well make me lazy and defeat the fitness object of having the bike. Also the negative effect on range when de-restricted makes the bike less suited to touring, which is what I mainly do.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,817
30,381
Most of the time time I use my Torq in restricted mode, the restriction only coming off for serious hill climbing or the need to beat bad weather. The bike is obviously a far better performer de-restricted but it's certainly no slouch with the restrictor on and I fear that excessive use de-restricted could well make me lazy and defeat the fitness object of having the bike. Also the negative effect on range when de-restricted makes the bike less suited to touring, which is what I mainly do.
I agree Ian, and it highlights the difference in our usage, yours being longer touring distances, mine being individual fast pleasure rides within a one or two battery range derestricted (15 / 30 miles).

I like this motor most though in the Quando / Q bike form, derestricted and geared 29% lower for up to 17 mph or so.
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Ian

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 1, 2007
1,333
0
Leicester LE4, UK.
Perhaps for optimum overall performance the Torq should have a 20" front wheel. It would look something like this and perhaps be called the Quork.:D

 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
52,817
30,381
Nice one Ian! All it needs is the steel basket frame over the front wheel and a postman on board. :D

Before tackling the T bike project I did consider other wheel sizes, looking at 22" and 24". Both would give good performances, but the 22" size is very difficult to find in rims and tyre choice is minimal.

The thing is that the Torq's motor actually gives perceptible power to over 25 mph, but is far too high geared to achieve that. In the Q bike's 20" wheel on a fresh Li-ion, it runs to 18 mph easily and even 19 mph without pedalling when things are favourable, though it soon settles to 16/17 mph, depending on battery state.

Therefore I think in a 24" wheel, the speed performance would probably be almost up to the standard derestricted Torq 1, but the hill climbing would gain considerably.
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I derestricted my Forza yesterday and, mama mia, what a major improvement! The bike's like a bloody gazelle now.... I used to hit this little hump back bridge at 14MPH, now I'm hitting it at 22MPH.... awesome baby! You're right Flecc, these bikes ARE geared to be used in derestricted mode, it's a totally different animal now it's getting full power from the motor. Sure, it will drain the battery faster but so bloomin' what? Life's too short to spend your time conserving bloomin' current isn't it?

I'm pretty much like you Flecc in that my journeys are mostly short distance, fairweather, zero wind, ideal conditions type of affairs and I'd rather get from A-B at pace than crawl along at a snail's pace. I must test the Sanyo battery on the post office run with the bike derestricted, it's 6 miles up one serious mama honker hill (you down south would probably call it a "mountain") and 6 miles back down the mountain.... an excellent testbed if I may say so and a real bitch on batteries.... it'll be interesting to see just how the Sanyo handles it :) She was kinda cutting in and out intermittently in restricted mode whereas the Phylion was not....

The faulty battery charger actually blew the two internal fuses in both phylion batteries (the 5amp automotive Q-Blade) types so this suggests it was outputting a lot more than 5 amps.... it didn't do anything to the Sanyo battery and I am suspecting the Sanyo battery doesn't have an internal fuse.... hopefully more than 5 amps going through it hasn't damaged it? It certainly didn't seem to be cutting out like this before the faulty battery charger was connected to it for over 6 hours :mad:

Anyways.... without further waffle here are some pics of my test road :)