Why does it seem so slow?

[allotmenteer]

Hello all

Can anyone tell me why my electric bike seems so slow? It can do 15mph comfortably and I know from timing my local routes that I get there much faster and much less sweaty than on my 27 speed MTB with slick tires. Why then does it not feel fast?

For example, I know that when I reach the roundabout at the top of Beacon hill, if I was on my pedal bike I would just have passed the Tesco Express 2/3 mile back down the hill, with a 4 minute heart-pumping, sweaty climb ahead of me to catch up with myself on my electric bike. So I know I'm knocking 25% off my times on the more hilly routes but it still doesn't seem fast somehow.

Maybe it's because the electric bike is heavier and just feels cumbersome. Maybe I need to go faster on the flats (say 25 mph) so that I can really feel the speed. I'm doing all my gaining on the hills and thus my average speed is higher but my maximum speed isn't.

I think I need a torq. Is there anyone in the Aldershot area who would be willing to let me have a test ride?

Paul

 

[flecc]

I think there is a "power assisted" element to this Paul. The bike I notice it most on is the Quando, where the single 70" gear doesn't make for comfortable pedalling above about 14 mph. Therefore I just sit there as it bowls along at 15/16 mph, quite a lot faster if after the battery is freshly charged (19 mph once straight off the charger!). But it all feels terribly slow.

On the Twist where it runs at similar speeds, has a much slower average and I have to pedal all the time as it's pedelec, and also put in more effort on hills anyway because it's lower powered, it feels much faster.

On ordinary bikes which I overlapped a year into my electric biking, it always felt fastest of all despite the journey averages in my hilly area being very much slower than the Quando and a bit slower than the Twist.

My Torq does away with the feeling in two ways. One is the speed of course, but perhaps of more importance is the overgeared motor which gives what A to B magazine have called an "express train feeling". I know what they mean, as it gathers speeds the relatively slow* but steady take up speed of the motor gives a feeling that it will go on for ever upwards as the revs steadily rise.

*The normally geared Quando with exactly the same power train accelerates much faster, but because of that loses the "power never ending" feeling, it just feels like a normal powerful bike.

If you ever get up to the North Surrey/Croydon border, you're welcome to try out my Torq on a run. (and the others)
.

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Why so slow?

Hello Paul Allotmenteer:
I guess that it's a psychological problem (don't get me wrong
You are not putting in so much effort (inherently lazy) as with the 27 speed MTB. You may even equate (somewhere in your sub-conscious) minimum effort with driving a car at much greater speeds. (Psychologists/psychiatrists might like to help out here)
Have you ever felt that the driving position in some cars makes them seem to go faster (white knuckle ride) when you are doing the usual speed? I think that's assosciated with a low seat position in relation to the road (as in sports car).
Ah now! Uphills, that's where it really feels faster (unless you've got a Torq and you are walking/pushing).
Perhaps electric bikes induce, in the rider, a sort of euphoria (like the lack of oxygen in a diver).
Joking aside (and to redeem myself): How far would you go to get a test ride on a Torq? You may get an offer which is much closer to Aldershot - please take it. I live in Mere, Wilts, just off the A303 (78 miles from you each way) - you are more than welcome to try mine (done <400 miles). I even have a 10% hill 5 or 6 miles away, which is my nemesis, to try it on (make a day of it). At the moment it's derestricted: I am awaiting the return from holiday of the friend who has the soldering iron to fit an on/off switch on the bars - one has the choice then.
I have found that at 15 mph (restricted) headwind does not so much affect the top speed - one can easily get the max 15 mph. Derestricted is a different matter: 20/22 mph in calm conditions is translated into 18/19 mph into a strong wind - At the higher speed one must add the greater air speed induced by the speed of the bike.
So if you felt inclined to try mine (the soldering-iron-man will be back on the 25th March) I'll send you a personal message thru' the forum when it's set up.
regards
peter

 

[flecc]

I have found that at 15 mph (restricted) headwind does not so much affect the top speed - one can easily get the max 15 mph. Derestricted is a different matter: 20/22 mph in calm conditions is translated into 18/19 mph into a strong wind

peter

That's the overgearing that I've referred to Peter. Race engineers know this effect well, once the gearing goes too high for the available power, slight adverse effects have an undue influence on the top speed, while favourable conditions lead to higher than normal speeds. The Torq if everything is right can still deliver some perceptible power at over 24 mph, but as you've said, the slightest adverse condition changes that, even a road surface change.

Acceleration is also affected similarly, see what I've said above.
.

 

[allotmenteer]

Thanks Flecc and Pete for the input. I have to agree that the problem is mostly psychological / illusory because clearly I do arrive at my destination quicker and less puffed out. Maybe as flecc says the gearing makes the riding experience less pleasurable than it could be. I don't know the gear inches on my setup (I'll count the teeth on the cogs when I get home) but I've got a six speed freewheel and can't get it into top (I've just put the kit on a cheapo steel frame bike I bought the other day - will post piccies soon) until I fiddle with the derailleur setup.

Thanks for the offers of test rides, I may take one of you up on that (though not in the next couple of weeks as I've got lots of work to do on the allotment and then I'm off on holiday). I remember there was someone on this forum who wanted a Torq to go from Winchester to Basingstoke. I live in Aldershot and work in Basingstoke so I'll search the posts for that member. Hopefully he/she bought a Torq and then if they are willing I could test one out on my home ground.

Re: the overgearing. That might explain when I set my controller pot to max I didn't seem to gain a lot of power - perhaps I was on a slight uphill / headwind. I'll need to find a completely flat bit of road (very hard to find actually) and try it again. There is an Army running track near me which I imagine must be absolutely level. I'll see if I can sneak in sometime

 

[flecc]

It's the motor gearing I'm referring to Paul, the bike gearing doesn't influence what I was speaking of. In other words, the motor in my bikes was designed for the Quando at normal speeds in a 20" wheel. When put into a 28" wheel it's geared up by 40% (the dimension difference), an amount that would give any motor engineer a fit, unthinkable in their field.

The Torq would do just as well with a 26" motor wheel, and probably give the same journey time in mixed territory with even a 24" motor wheel at half the overgearing. They'd lose that "express" feeling though.

To further illustrate, take that peak speed of 19.2 mph on the Quando with a battery straight off the charger. Divide that by 20 and multiply by 28 to adjust it for the Torq, and you come out with almost 27 mph. But the Torq will never achieve that, simply because the gearing has gone too far up for it to be possible.
.

 

[allotmenteer]

I think I see now. Like you've said before, the Torq motor is geared like the 4th gear in a car but only has a (relatively) low power motor and thus against adverse conditions (headwind, hill, bad road) does not have the power to overcome them and still maintain the high speed. If it was lower geared (say 2nd in a car) then it would never travel as fast top end but the power available would be enough to deal with the adverse conditons (which would have less effect at a lower speed anyway).

 

[ITSPETEINIT]

Why So Slow?

Hello again Paul:
You can obtain the location of a Torq owner(s) nearest you by requesting a demonstration from 50 Cycles on their web site.
Thay have a network of Ezee bikes owners (incl Torq) who have categorically stated they are willing to give demos. If you buy they also make a few bob.
Peter

 

[allotmenteer]

Thanks Pete. I'll try that out then. I found the person in Winchester - it's Jason. I've PM'd him too.

Paul

 

[flecc]

That's exactly it Paul, the second gear is the Quando and the fourth gear the Torq in your analogy.

In the UK market I refer to your second gear analogy as normal, since that's the motor gear that equates to roughly the legal 15 mph limit and applies to virtually all our e-bikes. Because the 40% overgearing of the Torq gives the potential to reach motor drive speeds up to 40% faster, it alone has the governor/limiter, which I think is nothing more than a pulse rate limitation on the controller corresponding to 15 mph road speed.
.

 

[nigel]

Nigel

Hi paul
i live in millbrook southampton you would be welcome to try out my torq if you like i had it about 3 weeks and i love it what other forum readers have said is dead right ie if there is a strong wind you can be down to 17-18mph for that day also pending road surface but i am finding it ok to ride with power of which i am doing more of as i get used to the extra weight so may be i might get a bit fitter NIGEL

 

[Mike Robinson]

I used to have a number of 750cc sports bikes and these always seemed slow in town (even though I was probably vastly exceeding speed limits). Conversely with my scooters (particularly a Gilera 180sp) the ride into town would always feel exciting and on the edge. I put it down to the small wheels, inferior handling and a 2-stroke power-band.

I'm sure you could make you're own bike seem faster by simply taking off any protective eye wear, helmets etc and then loosen off the brakes so it always feel like you're going to fast to stop

Mike

Just kidding by the way.

 

[flecc]

For the best speed feeling, go recumbent.

There's nothing to beat being inches above the tarmac and looking up at truck wheels thundering past for that genuine feeling of sheer terror.
.

 

[electric.mike]

For the best speed feeling, go recumbent.

There's nothing to beat being inches above the tarmac and looking up at truck wheels thundering past for that genuine feeling of sheer terror.
.

flecc let me get this right, your suggesting i keep my eyes open when a HGV comes past? novel but not sure it will catch on.
mike

 

[flecc]

-----------

I've got one of the middle of the road narrow cycle lanes in my area where buses thunder past on the left, trucks on the right at the same time, so there one eye is open for each. Scary stuff at times, and on a low recumbent that probably would shut both eyes and inspire the odd impromptu prayer.
.

 

[coops]

Hi Paul

I agree psychology is a factor, but there may be real, physical factors too .

How easy is it to pedal beyond the ~15mph (or what speed you have yours set at) motor limit to go faster on the flat?

How high your drivetrain is geared is one factor (that & your cadence clearly determines how fast you could go) - post your wheelsize & front/rear teeth numbers once you've counted up

But another factor is how easy (or not) is it to pedal at ~15mph+ speeds with your hub motor fitted? i.e. how much/little drag is there from the motor? I've tried a few different hub motor bikes & found that the Torq is much easier to pedal beyond 15mph (limited or delimited) - seems to have "low/minimum" drag compared to some others: with the high drivetrain gearing of the Torq, I can do ~18mph even on a limited Torq with little apparent pedalling effort .

EDIT: error in previous statement - 18mph is do-able but requires some exertion and I would not do it except in short bursts, and with more experience I now don't consider it that easy to pedal much beyond 15mph on a restricted torq (though still easier than most hub bikes I'm sure): I think other's experience on torqs will back this up.

I'd say try out a Torq anyway, especially if 15mph+ is not so easy on your hub bike, but be prepared to buy one if you do - because you'll want to!

Stuart.

 

[allotmenteer]

Hi Paul
How easy is it to pedal beyond the ~15mph (or what speed you have yours set at) motor limit to go faster on the flat?

I can do 15+ mph on the flat quite easily. It'll be easier once I put the slick tire on the front to replace the knobbly.

How high your drivetrain is geared is one factor (that & your cadence clearly determines how fast you could go) - post your wheelsize & front/rear teeth numbers once you've counted up

I've got a 6 speed 14-28 on the rear and a 42 tooth big chainwheel on the front. I can't use the 14 chainring at the moment as a bolt holding the rear rack on would foul the chain (I'm still setting the new bike up). I need to put a spacer in to stop it fouling. The chainline is poor as well which I really notice because my expensive bike with it's new drivetrain is fantastically smooth.

But another factor is how easy (or not) is it to pedal at ~15mph+ speeds with your hub motor fitted? i.e. how much/little drag is there from the motor? I've tried a few different hub motor bikes & found that the Torq is much easier to pedal beyond 15mph (limited or delimited) - seems to have "low/minimum" drag compared to some others: with the high drivetrain gearing of the Torq, I can do ~18mph even on a limited Torq with little apparent pedalling effort

I do notice the drag from the geared hub just as flecc has mentioned. As he said this drag is only really noticeable at 15mph+.

I'd say try out a Torq anyway, especially if 15mph+ is not so easy on your hub bike, but be prepared to buy one if you do - because you'll want to!

Yes, I think I'll buy one on the spot. My company is doing a bike to work scheme again soon (or so they tell me). They did the last one through Halfords though so I don't know if I'll be able to get something from 50 Cycles through the scheme.

Paul

 

[coops]

I do notice the drag from the geared hub just as flecc has mentioned. As he said this drag is only really noticeable at 15mph+.

I think thats a large part of the answer: with motor assist your uphill speed is increased greatly with much less effort, but your flat maximium speed is same/slightly lower than a standard bike and your downhill speed is probably reduced a fair amount:

The bike's gearing is one limit (I think your top gear with cadence of 72rpm gives just over 16mph, for 26" wheels), plus the level of resistance due to the hub motor at higher speeds will limit the amount of pedal assist you can realistically give (regardless of the bike's gearing) & limit the top speed on the flat, aswell as the downhill speed.

To go faster than the 15mph motor limit on both flat & downhills, to increase your average speed & reduce journey times you'd need both higher drivetrain gearing & lower resistance to pedalling @15mph+ which, for one, the Torq allows (or alternatively motor power beyond 15mph - off-road of course ).

EDIT: Please see my edit to my last post: I have over-estimated the ease of pedalling beyond 15mph on a speed-restricted torq - I don't wish to mislead others hence the amendments .

Stuart.

 

[coops]

I have edited my last 2 posts re ~18mph or 15mph+ on a restricted Torq, please see my corrections, sorry for the errors, thanks

Stuart.

 

[coops]

Just another thought on why it may seem slow:

Seems obvious really, but like you said its one thing going much faster up hills & into headwinds, but on the flat & in favourable conditions one can often pedal a normal bike beyond 15mph, so though you save most time & effort on an electric where you'd otherwise be slowed down & worked hard, conversely you may well be slowed up a bit on flats...

Unless you ride a bike which allows you to easily exceed 15mph on the flat...

But then, thats usually at the cost of lower range for the same battery capacity...

Swings and roundabouts, eh?