8 speed rear derailleur with clutch

[Vim Fuego]

My wife's Haibike SDuro 1.0 had been nothing but trouble since the day it was purchased. Tredz and Haibike have washed their hands of the problems, so it's down to me to sort out. It seems to be some very poor design choices and cost cutting too far on the groupset (8 speed Shamamo Acera).

Compared to my SDuro 3.0 with 10 speed Deore groupset with a derailleur with a clutch, the difference in chain tension is huge.

As a result, the SDuro 1.0 has lots of chain bounce and the chain jumps off frequently. Coupled with the choice to fit 8sp and a thicker 3/22 chain, when it jumps off, it jams and can't be refitted roadside, needing a chain splitter tool. Hugely inconvenient.

I have tried all sorts of solutions, none them fix it, none address the root cause, cheap and nasty budget groupset.

Trying to properly sort this out, and I feel it needs a better quality rear derailleur with a clutch, but I haven't been able to source something suitable in 8sp (which would be my ideal path, as it should just be a derailleur swap). If I need to go to 10sp to get a derailleur with a clutch, then it's more complicated, as it means rear cassette and handlebar changer swapping.

Anyone done such an upgrade 8sp to 10sp?

Or..

Anyone know of an 8sp derailleur with a clutch that can deliver decent tension suitable for e-bikes and not the useless crap that Haibike decided to fit?

Thanks.

 

[Nealh]

Microshift Acolyte do a 8spd clutched one but it is only compatible with their own shifter.

 

[guerney]

This may or may not be of use, but I think it's worth trying, cheap and easy: When I bought a new chain for my bike, I had endless troubles - tried the adjustment screw to change tension to no avail... chain kept jumping off. In the end, removing links and testing each time I removed one, worked. Now I know to remove 3 links from any new chain of the same brand and model (KMC-X8). Four links removed was too many lol.

 

[Jodel]

Acera is quite far down the Shimano hierarchy and its performance reflects that. As a sweeping generalisation, my own view is that Deore is about the lowest level groupset where performance is significantly better than the budget offerings.

I don't think you'll be able to source a clutch type rear derailleur until you move to 10 speeds (or more). However, a decent Deore 9 speed rear derailleur such as an RD-M591 or RD-M592 may well resolve your issues. The 591 is a conventional type, the 592 is a 'shadow' version. I have no experience with the shadow types, but my understanding is that they have a stronger spring to maintain chain tension. That said, if the shifters themselves are not especially good quality, the effort to change gear may be to high for your wife's fingers with a shadow type. Also, I believe shadow derailleurs are more 'fiddly' to set up.

You can get either type from here:

Shimano Deore RD-M592 Rear Derailleur 9-speed Shadow black | Bikester.co.uk

The Shimano Deore RD-M592 Rear Derailleur 9-speed Shadow black at Bikester.co.uk ✓ Biking specialists in the UK ✓ Buy online with free returns ✓ Easy shipping ✓ Great prices with the best service ✓ Find what you need with Bikester.co.uk ✓

www.bikester.co.uk

Shimano Deore RD-M591 Rear Derailleur black | Bikester.co.uk

The Shimano Deore RD-M591 Rear Derailleur black at Bikester.co.uk ✓ Biking specialists in the UK ✓ Buy online with free returns ✓ Easy shipping ✓ Great prices with the best service ✓ Find what you need with Bikester.co.uk ✓

www.bikester.co.uk

I have the RD-M591 on several bikes (including a tandem which has very long cable runs compared to a solo). It performs well with a very light action with Deore rapidfire shift levers and fast changes at the rear.

I'm not sure if Shimano are still making 'decent' 9-speed rear derailleurs, so you may have to grab one while you can.

 

[Vim Fuego]

Have ordered this up, along with a cassette removal tool (chain grip and nut thingy).

JGbike Compatible 10 speed MTB 4pc groupset for Shimano Deore M4100: Right Shift Lever,Long cage Rear Derailleur, 11-42T Cassette or Sunrace 11-46T Cassette, KMC X10 Chain https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B084KTRLXK/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_WQ0T2K0SY40507V0WA2B

Anything else I might need, or should be aware of? I did measure the hub of the 8sp wheel, and it appears to be the same dimension (depth) as my 10sp, the 10sp having a tighter pitch between the gears, so hoping it should be compatible (it's on Amazon prime, so easily returnable)

 

[Jodel]

Have ordered this up, along with a cassette removal tool (chain grip and nut thingy).

JGbike Compatible 10 speed MTB 4pc groupset for Shimano Deore M4100: Right Shift Lever,Long cage Rear Derailleur, 11-42T Cassette or Sunrace 11-46T Cassette, KMC X10 Chain https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B084KTRLXK/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_WQ0T2K0SY40507V0WA2B

Anything else I might need, or should be aware of? I did measure the hub of the 8sp wheel, and it appears to be the same dimension (depth) as my 10sp, the 10sp having a tighter pitch between the gears, so hoping it should be compatible (it's on Amazon prime, so easily returnable)

That looks like a pretty decent upgrade and should work well. Let us know how it goes.

 

[guerney]

Both my bike and derailleur (8 speed SRAM SX4) are very old, and I think that's why removing 3 links worked. My theory is that the spring on the derailleur has lost it's springiness over the decades (lower grade springs may degrade sooner?), therefore using the spring tensioner screw produced a derailleur arm angle too extreme, bringing it too close to the rear cassette. It solved the chain jumping off problem, but the derailleur arm brought the chain so close that occasionally it'd grind the chain against itself on the rear cassette - springiness was randomly variable, which leads me to believe the old spring within the derailleur was at fault. Weirdly, unscrewing the chain tensioner screw fully and increasing tension by removing links, didn't have the same effect on the derailleur arm angle, yet had the same effect of stopping the chain from jumping off. I can only test my theory by buying a brand new 8 speed SRAM SX4 derailleur, but it's working, so I won't for now. Removing one, then two links and tensioning the chain via the tensioning screw, didn't work either - it had to be three removed links. I think it was/is a shagged out derailleur arm spring. Either that or my bike has always required 3 links fewer in the specs, which doesn't appear to be the case.

 

[Vim Fuego]

Both my bike and derailleur (8 speed SRAM SX4) are very old, and I think that's why removing 3 links worked. My theory is that the spring on the derailleur has lost it's springiness over the decades (lower grade springs may degrade sooner?), therefore using the spring tensioner screw produced a derailleur arm angle too extreme, bringing it too close to the rear cassette. It solved the chain jumping off problem, but the derailleur arm brought the chain so close that occasionally it'd grind the chain against itself on the rear cassette - springiness was randomly variable, which leads me to believe the old spring within the derailleur was at fault. Weirdly, unscrewing the chain tensioner screw fully and increasing tension by removing links, didn't have the same effect on the derailleur arm angle, yet had the same effect of stopping the chain from jumping off. I can only test my theory by buying a brand new 8 speed SRAM SX4 derailleur, but it's working, so I won't for now. Removing one, then two links and tensioning the chain via the tensioning screw, didn't work either - it had to be three removed links. I think it was/is a shagged out derailleur arm spring. Either that or my bike has always required 3 links fewer in the specs, which doesn't appear to be the case.

Already been down that road. When the bike was originally supplied by Tredz/Haibike, the chain was jumping off most weeks. After much messing around, removing a pair of links significantly improved the issue, but didn't fully cure it.

 

[guerney]

Already been down that road. When the bike was originally supplied by Tredz/Haibike, the chain was jumping off most weeks. After much messing around, removing a pair of links significantly improved the issue, but didn't fully cure it.

It's all widly irritating, know the feeling. My chain jumping reduced significantly after removing two links,but then I removed another, and now it all works perfectly. I did also go further and removed four, but that was too much. I didn't use the chain with four removed links, because I'm rubbish at putting links back on, I simply bought a brand new chain and removed three links.

 

[Vim Fuego]

It's all widly irritating, know the feeling. My chain jumping reduced significantly after removing two links,but then I removed another, and now it all works perfectly. I did also go further and removed four, but that was too much. I didn't use the chain with four removed links, because I'm rubbish at putting links back on, I simply bought a brand new chain and removed three links.

Taking another 2 out is too much, the angles are totally wrong on the derailleur. It also feels like it's not addressing the root cause of the problems. Will be fitting the new kit at the weekend, and hopefully knock the problems on the head for good. (my Haibike Sduro 3 has been absolutely perfect, no suck problems similar mileage)

 

[guerney]

Taking another 2 out is too much, the angles are totally wrong on the derailleur. It also feels like it's. It addressing the root cause of the problems. Will be fitting the new kit at the weekend, and hopefully knock the problems on the head for good. (my Haibike Sduro 3 has been absolutely perfect, no suck problems similar mileage)

I disregard derailleur angles as they're supposed to look - as long as the chain is not touching itself on the rear cassette, or causing problems is all I go by - unscrew the chain tensioning screw fully first before trying the chain with additional links removed, and only use that to fine tune as needed? Whatever you decide to do, I hope you sort it out. Haibikes are not cheap! If I'd shelled out that sort of money for a bike and it didn't work perfectly, I'd be incandescent with rage!

 

[Vim Fuego]

Haibikes are not cheap!

Sadly, their support is really really poor. I still have an open ticket from 8 months ago, they never resolved regarding this issue, and threw the usual covid excuses as to why I should accept slow (8 month) response times

 

[soundwave]

you wont get any help from haibike unless it is frame related and in warranty.

but as you found out using the cheapest rear mech is just not up to the job on these bikes.

 

[Vim Fuego]

So item from Amazon arrived, and it's not as described. The rear Derailleur is a Deore 4120 SGS, and doesn't have a clutch (listing indicates it was a M6000). I'm not sure if it's going to address the issue I am trying to fix. Unsure if to send it back or not.

My bike, I ride it 100% with the clutch on, and this supplied derailleur for the wife's bike is a "shadow" version (I believe). Question: Will the tension of this "shadow" version equate to the tension that I am getting on my bike (in other words, does the clutch on mine, basically switch between "shadow" and "non-shadow" tensions)? if so, then I'm not losing anything (other than perhaps being able to reduce tension - not something I need).

 

[Vim Fuego]

Sent the item back, the picture and specs say it's M6000 with clutch, and it's not that. After looking into the issues some more, I can also see the freehub is really rough, which isn't helping issues. I need to sort this before changing groupsets. I might get a quote from the LBS, but most near me are mostly useless, or con-men.

This problematic bike gets lots of slack if I backpedal, mine doesn't do this. The hub seems to be at fault here.

It feels I am fighting a multitude of issues and effects of cost cutting.

 

[guerney]

Sent the item back, the picture and specs say it's M6000 with clutch, and it's not that. After looking into the issues some more, I can also see the freehub is really rough, which isn't helping issues. I need to sort this before changing groupsets. I might get a quote from the LBS, but most near me are mostly useless, or con-men.

This problematic bike gets lots of slack if I backpedal, mine doesn't do this. The hub seems to be at fault here.

It feels I am fighting a multitude of issues and effects of cost cutting.

My LBS gives genuinely fantastic advice over the phone, but when you actually go to buy anything, he palms you off with the cheapest nastiest trash imaginable; thus guaranteeing repeat business. His brake a gear cables for instance, rust instantly - it's the ony type he sells! His slime tubes are out of date, fall apart and rupture with handling, his front reflectors are trash, everything he's sold me has been cr*p. He's a right dodgy wily 90 year old, been in the business since birth, so his approach must work for him. I tried supporting his local business, but it's ebay and online for me, all day.

 

[Vim Fuego]

Update, after taking things apart, the freehub wasnt running very smoothly. Refurbishment/replacement is beyond my capabilities, and given the derailleur wasn't as advertised, it got returned to amazon. I got a price to fix freehub and supply and fit correct components from LBS, worked out about £80 more than doing it myself and there is comeback if it doesn't work.

It's booked it today. Getting a Deore M5120, 10sp cassette, shifter, chain and a freehub refurb for around £200.

 

[Vim Fuego]

A couple of months in, the bike has been perfect. There is now decent tension much less chain bounce, with and without the clutch engaged (we leave it engaged), gear changes are much smoother, better gear range (8sp Vs 10sp), and if the chain does come off, it's now thin enough to refit at the side of the road.

Haibike should never have sold the SDuro 1.0 with such a low spec groupset IMHO. I would complain to them, but their customer support is totally non existent. My advice, never buy a Haibike, get a Cube or something else. They shouldn't be allowe to sell faulty stuff without consequences.

Whilst I'm happy the issue is resolved, we are at least £250 out of pocket on diagnosis and replacements, and that money could ahve been spent upfront buying a higher spec bike from the range with a bigger battery and motor.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

A couple of months in, the bike has been perfect. There is now decent tension much less chain bounce, with and without the clutch engaged (we leave it engaged), gear changes are much smoother, better gear range (8sp Vs 10sp), and if the chain does come off, it's now thin enough to refit at the side of the road.

Haibike should never have sold the SDuro 1.0 with such a low spec groupset IMHO. I would complain to them, but their customer support is totally non existent. My advice, never buy a Haibike, get a Cube or something else. They shouldn't be allowe to sell faulty stuff without consequences.

Whilst I'm happy the issue is resolved, we are at least £250 out of pocket on diagnosis and replacements, and that money could ahve been spent upfront buying a higher spec bike from the range with a bigger battery and motor.

I don't think the original groupset is bad its used on many standard bikes without issues. If you fit it to a ebike with a mid-drive motor the story is different that motor adds hugely to the riders own power and the story is very different. On a hub motor ebike because the motor is independent of the drivetrain you can fit pretty much garbage components and they work great and last much, much longer than a standard bike because it reduces the load on the drivetrain. Some derailleurs don't have a clutch but they do have a stronger spring that means they apply a bit more tension to the chain but a clutch is the ideal solution I'm sure.

 

[georgehenry]

Good to hear you have got it sorted.

If you add a good quality narrow wide chain ring to what you have already done, I would be surprised if the chain ever came off.

My 2015 Haibike sduro Yamaha came with a small chain guide, but I don't know if your Habikes have that. It was not that effective, but I have kept it.

Fitting a narrow wide chain ring for me was a game changer as I ride quite aggressively off road, really bouncing around at times and found it really annoying if I drooped the chain of the chain ring. That all stopped after I fitted the narrow wide chain ring.