A refusal often offends

[Teejay]

I rode last night from Northolt, where I live, to meet some friends at The White Horse, now the only pub at Hedgerley, a charming Bucks village just north of Slough. My current bike is a 905e, modded to throttle use only, with the 10 amp/hr battery. Good for the 13 miles there but I think the full 26 would be beyond it. So, I took the charger with me.

I politely asked if I could plug it in. 'No' "But I'll be stuck" 'The boss is against people coming here and charging things up. Electricity is expensive these days'. I offered to pay 10p for the half-unit it would use(?) 'No'. "Where's the boss then?" 'He's not here tonight'. "Well, he won't know, will he?" 'Ah, but the regulars will tell him'. Things got rather heated after that and I was slung out.

Mercifully one of my friends came to the rescue and went to the trouble of taking my battery to his home and charging it there. A pleasant evening ruined by a jobsworthish employee. Pity, as its basically a nice pub that does some excellent beers.

Was wondering whether other members had ever encountered such unhelpful behaviour - and how they got out of it?

 

[frank9755]

Bad luck
I hope the employee wil do a cost benefit analysis for his/her boss on the electricity cost saved vs the profit lost from your business
I've asked to charge a handful of times and never had a problem.

 

[Broadbeans]

It's a sad tale, Teejay. Folks don't realise just how little juice you need to recharge. Hopefully, things will improve...but I reckon it'll be a s-l-o-w learning curve. What you really need is my patent Network of Girlfriends, strategically chosen not for their good looks, but for their location and socket-friendliness. I'm hoping to have my network in place by the time I order my electrobike. I'm currently working on girlfriend number 2!

:- ) Johnny

 

[JohnofCambridge]

Johnny

I think you have a long way to go to your network but it will be fun trying. Perhaps you should go big time and do the lands end to John O groats via girlfriends, advertising for friends along the route. Do the route for a charity - SUSTRANS perhaps. Ask them to supply you a charge in return for your interesting story!!! Good luck!

I was at a pub restaurant on Tuesday night and was hesitant to ask them for a charge. I did wonder if I phoned in advance as i made the booking and asked whether they would give me a charge would that would have made things easier - the principle of no charge = no booking

John

 

[Broadbeans]

That's a topping idea, John!

There was recently a programme on Radio 4 called 'Three Men in a Float'. They travelled from, I think, East Anglia to Devon-ish in an electric milk-float, relying on goodwill from strangers, landlords, etc. to supply heavyweight charge-ups overnight. One chap even offered to temporarily re-wire his domestic supply to help them out of a fix! They got there in the end. Dunno if they returned the same way; it didn't say! Johnny

 

[Rad]

I can't get past the phrase 'socket friendliness'

 

[Broadbeans]

LOL, Rad! Johnny

 

[fishingpaul]

I can see landlords looking at the size of our batterys, and probably thinking it would cost far more than the few pence in electric that they use,then in a few weeks time when it is cold a little old lady might bring in a halogen heater,lanlord says you cant use that in here, old lady replies its a bit cold in here anyway you let a man charge a big battery up the other day.

 

[Footie]

There are of course, legal implications in using electrical equipment in commercial establishments; I refer to the portable appliances testing laws.
This is a requirement (by law) that ALL electrical equipment must be tested to confirm it is safe to use. It's also a stipulation on many building insurance certificates.
If your charger has not been PAT tested then the employee is perfectly right to refuse to allow you to plug it in - he would be breaking the law if he did.
In an extreme situation, if it caught fire and burned the Pub down, the insurers could refuse to pay up because untested electrical equipment was in use and they may well be looking at you to pay for the loss of the building, as it was your (untested) equipment that started the fire.
Error on the side of caution on this one - this is really muddy water

---------------------

PAT Testing

Legislation
Current legislation demands that employers ensure portable appliances are safe.

Electricity At Work Act 1989
To meet the requirements of the 1989 "electricity at work regulations it is widely regarded to be necessary to implement a programmed of planned inspection and testing of portable appliances,.
As may be nessesary to prevent danger all systems shall be maintained so as to prevent so far as is reasonably practicable such danger.

Provisions & Use Of Work Equipment Regulations 1992
Every employer shall ensure that work equipment is maintained in an efficient state, in efficent working order and in good repair.

Provisions & Use Of Work Equipment Regulations 1998
Every employer shall ensure that the result of an inspection made under this regulation is recorded and kept until the next inspection under this regulations is recorded.
.

 

[Jeremy]

One way around this potential problem might be to get the charger PAT tested and fitted with a sticker (maybe via whoever does it at your place of work) and also to carry a cheap power usage meter, like this: Amazon.co.uk: Plug-In Power and Energy Monitor Meter: Electronics & Photo. PAT testing might be a sensible thing to have done anyway, as I have my doubts as to the quality of one or two of the Chinese made chargers.

Offering to pay the landlord double whatever the meter reads for a charge would make iot seem that you're being generous and allowing him a profit, whilst still only costing a few pence. Once word gets around that electric bike batteries are extremely cheap to charge then I'm sure the problem will diminish.

Jeremy

 

[Tiberius]

The real pressure to plug things in comes surely not from e-bikers but from people with laptops. I expect a lot of commercial premises have already formulated a policy on this.

I do a lot of travelling to meetings with my laptop. In the small print of venues is quite often a requirement that everything is PAT tested, so my laptop and its charger have prominent PAT stickers. Maybe I need to get one on my charger.

Nick

 

[frank9755]

There are of course, legal implications in using electrical equipment in commercial establishments; I refer to the portable appliances testing laws.
This is a requirement (by law) that ALL electrical equipment must be tested to confirm it is safe to use. It's also a stipulation on many building insurance certificates.
If your charger has not been PAT tested then the employee is perfectly right to refuse to allow you to plug it in - he would be breaking the law if he did.
In an extreme situation, if it caught fire and burned the Pub down, the insurers could refuse to pay up because untested electrical equipment was in use and they may well be looking at you to pay for the loss of the building, as it was your (untested) equipment that started the fire.
Error on the side of caution on this one - this is really muddy water
.

This all refers to appliances used by employees, not by customers.

Many cafes now provide power sockets specifically for customers to use - with laptops and mobile phones in mind. I've used such sockets in a Cafe Rouge, without it seeming even appropriate to ask permission.

 

[Footie]

frank9755 posted:
.... This all refers to appliances used by employees, not by customers.
Many cafes now provide power sockets specifically for customers to use - with laptops and mobile phones in mind. I've used such sockets in a Cafe Rouge, without it seeming even appropriate to ask permission ....

I'm afraid I can't comment on being able to use a laptop in a Cafe as here in the Southwest it's more geared for holidaymakers than business users.

However, I believe your incorrect - I think you'll find the PAT laws refers to all equipment used on a commercial sites.
I'm a Site Supervisor for a large Comprehensive School (1500 pupils, 200 staff) and I'm responsible for ensuring PAT testing is up to date - all electrical equipment used on site must be PAT tested. The key word is 'used'.
Large company's/establishments (Council's, etc) know not to take chances and adhere to the law very closely. I know for a fact that our buildings insurance stipulates that ALL portable equipment used on site must be PAT tested.
This includes, all school equipment, staff equipment (any personal equipment brought into the school), pupil’s equipment, evening adult education class’s equipment, contractor’s equipment (110v), Christmas tree lights (favourite of teachers to brighten their rooms) and all visiting performers equipment.

If an establishment decides to have a relaxed approach to portable electrical equipment then they are probably a small concern and don't realise the dangers they are placing themselves in, both legally or damage/loss wise.

PS: I'd be interested to see their risk assessments
.

 

[Hooligooner]

Hate to say it, but it seems to me that a business proprietor is perfectly within his rights to say what is or isn't connected to his power supply on his premises, regardless of any legal red tape that may be found. A simple phone call would have saved any embarrassment.

However, boo to them for not letting you charge up.

 

[Django]

frank9755 posted:
.... This all refers to appliances used by employees, not by customers.
Many cafes now provide power sockets specifically for customers to use - with laptops and mobile phones in mind. I've used such sockets in a Cafe Rouge, without it seeming even appropriate to ask permission ....

I'm afraid I can't comment on being able to use a laptop in a Cafe as here in the Southwest it's more geared for holidaymakers than business users.

However, I believe your incorrect - I think you'll find the PAT laws refers to all equipment used on a commercial sites.
I'm a Site Supervisor for a large Comprehensive School (1500 pupils, 200 staff) and I'm responsible for ensuring PAT testing is up to date - all electrical equipment used on site must be PAT tested. The key word is 'used'.
Large company's/establishments (Council's, etc) know not to take chances and adhere to the law very closely. I know for a fact that our buildings insurance stipulates that ALL portable equipment used on site must be PAT tested.
This includes, all school equipment, staff equipment (any personal equipment brought into the school), pupil’s equipment, evening adult education class’s equipment, contractor’s equipment (110v), Christmas tree lights (favourite of teachers to brighten their rooms) and all visiting performers equipment.

If an establishment decides to have a relaxed approach to portable electrical equipment then they are probably a small concern and don't realise the dangers they are placing themselves in, both legally or damage/loss wise.

PS: I'd be interested to see their risk assessments
.

The two key phrases in the law are 'reasonably practicable' and 'a programme of planned inspection and testing of portable appliances'. There are, in fact, no laws on PAT testing, it is merely an easy way to comply with the requirements.

That being the case there is no requirement that every piece of equipment used should be PAT tested before it is used only that the 'system' is safe and regularly checked. As my home is my place of work (I am a boarding school housemaster), everything in my home is PAT tested once a year with new equipment waiting until the next test. This is entirely within the letter and spirit of the law.

If my system is safe and someone comes in wanting to plug into it it is 'reasonably practicable' for me to ask to see it for obvious defects, consider what the item is and then give or deny permission for it to be used. It is not 'reasonably practicable' for me to call out an electrician and have the item PAT tested.

The issue of insurance stipulations is another matter of course. Personally, I would ignore it for a few hours and hope the place doesn't burn down. I have a natural distaste for being dictated to by insurers.

 

[Footie]

If it aint PAT tested you won't plug it in at my school.
If you do and I find it I'll cut the plug off

Cheers, got to go work now
.

 

[Tiberius]

Electricity frightens people far out of proportion to the number of incidents. So electrical installations are one of the places where good old fashioned restrictive trade practices still go on. I'm not surprised that there are people making a living by saying PAT testing is compulsory when it isn't.

Although its not my main job, I happen to be a chartered electrical engineer. I can mess around with 3 phase commercial supplies all day long. But when I go home, I can't put a socket in my kitchen because I haven't paid the enormous fee to the right body.

If the wiring in the building meets the Wiring Regulations, then you can plug anything in without fear of the building becoming dangerous or burning down. So a faulty charger might be dangerous to the user, or could even catch fire itself, but should be no danger to the building its plugged into.

Some peoples' reluctance to allow battery charging may be well founded, even if its done for the wrong reasons. What's the most dangerous thing you can plug into a wall socket? I suspect an unattended lithium battery pack and charger is up there with hair curlers, electric blankets and tumble driers.

Nick

 

[Django]

If it aint PAT tested you won't plug it in at my school.
If you do and I find it I'll cut the plug off

Cheers, got to go work now
.

Not your fault, you're just doing your job, but my heart always sinks a little when I see that kind of statement. Still, there is a great deal to be said for a clear policy. With no necessity in law, I just wish we could have that policy predicated upon common sense, rather than insurance company stipulations.

 

[john]

This all refers to appliances used by employees, not by customers.

That is correct. The legislation sates:

"The requirements imposed by these Regulations on an employer shall apply in respect of work equipment provided for use or used by any of his employees who is at work..."

Since tha battery and charger is provided and used by the customer then I don't see how this could apply.

 

[frank9755]

Thanks John!

In addition to cafes with power sockets round the walls at table height, there are many other situations where consumers plug in their own electric appliances, for example hotels, serviced offices, airport lounges and nowadays even trains.

In many cases it is lithium batteries that are being plugged in - admittedly smaller than a bike battery - on mobile phones, laptops, portable dvd players, etc.

None of this takes away from the right of a pub-owner or their employee to refuse to allow you to plug in if they feel so inclined. In the same way, no-one forces the customer to stay should the refusal offend!