Alien kit up and running

[Old Timer]

This question is aimed at Alien kit users.

The pedelec seems to work opposite to how my E bike works.

Lower gears, faster pedaling sees the motor giving great torque. Selecting higher gears obviously the crank turns slower and where as on my E bike that is when you get the biggest help from the hub with the alien it`s the other way round and you tend to be left on your own. there nothing wrong with the power of the motor because in any gear using throttle it flies along . In fact in top gear and throttle I`d be surprised if it wasn`t giving assistance at 20mph.

Now I fitted my pedelec magnet and disk on the left hand side to avoid having to destroy my triple chain set(removing the small ring and grinding the lugs) In case the opposite side is what is reversing the flow I`ve tried turning the magnet disk around and don`t get anything. The disk works when it turns in the opposite direction to what the arrows say which is not surprising because it is on the other side. Thinking about it! when you fit the sensor on the other side to what it was intended am I right in thinking that the magnets are passing it in the wrong direction?

I`m confused .com

Before I remove the chainset and destroy the small chain wheel what is your views! (flecc)
There was a member who fitted on the other side(can`t find the thread now)

Dave

 

[HarryB]

This question is aimed at Alien kit users.

The pedelec seems to work opposite to how my E bike works.

Lower gears, faster pedaling sees the motor giving great torque. Selecting higher gears obviously the crank turns slower and where as on my E bike that is when you get the biggest help from the hub with the alien it`s the other way round and you tend to be left on your own. there nothing wrong with the power of the motor because in any gear using throttle it flies along . In fact in top gear and throttle I`d be surprised if it wasn`t giving assistance at 20mph.

Now I fitted my pedelec magnet and disk on the left hand side to avoid having to destroy my triple chain set(removing the small ring and grinding the lugs) In case the opposite side is what is reversing the flow I`ve tried turning the magnet disk around and don`t get anything. The disk works when it turns in the opposite direction to what the arrows say which is not surprising because it is on the other side. Thinking about it! when you fit the sensor on the other side to what it was intended am I right in thinking that the magnets are passing it in the wrong direction?

I`m confused .com

Before I remove the chainset and destroy the small chain wheel what is your views! (flecc)
There was a member who fitted on the other side(can`t find the thread now)

Dave

It is just a disc with a set of magnets in it so it shouldn't matter which way it turns. The more magnets pass the sensor the 'bigger' the signal that is sent to the controller. What you talking about is something that is set up in the software of the controller itself - are there any instructions with it? It also depends on what bike you are comparing it with - the Panasonics work in the opposite way of course and assumes you need more help when your cadence reduces. Maybe it assumes if you change down a gear you need more help - I agree - a little illogical.

 

[onmebike]

If magnets are evenly spaced direction will make no difference.
Try turning the sensor over by 180degrees, so if the cable came out of the back when on the right side, it may need to come out the front on the wrong side. Just a thought.

 

[NRG]

It was me who fitted a sensor on the L/H side of the crank but it wasn't an Alien kit. No matter, I checked my Alien GSII bike when I replaced the crank recently and the disk on my bike is actually fitted the wrong way 'round! Putting it the 'correct' way 'round made no difference to the operation...it only made the clearance between it and the sensor slightly greater so I refitted it back as it was.

The amount of motor assistance is related to how fast the crank is turning....some find this illogical and prefer the way the Panasonic unit adds assistance when the crank speed drops but I find it natural... If I hit an incline or a headwind I change down a gear or two to get the cadence up and thus increase the motor assistance along with upping my input. The Panasonic on the other hand would be adding in more power at this point. Horses for courses IMHO.

It's not perfect though, I do find the ramp up in assistance as crank speed increases to be a bit steep...I'd prefer if the ramp was a little more gentle and built up a bit more slowly, other than that it suits me well. BTW, congratulations on getting it all together.

 

[Ducat]

I actually like the way the pedelec system works on the Alien GSII, the only problem I have is changing up through the gears fast enough to keep up!

Time to go the NRG route of a bigger chain set, methinks!

 

[Old Timer]

It was me who fitted a sensor on the L/H side of the crank but it wasn't an Alien kit. No matter, I checked my Alien GSII bike when I replaced the crank recently and the disk on my bike is actually fitted the wrong way 'round! Putting it the 'correct' way 'round made no difference to the operation...it only made the clearance between it and the sensor slightly greater so I refitted it back as it was.

The amount of motor assistance is related to how fast the crank is turning....some find this illogical and prefer the way the Panasonic unit adds assistance when the crank speed drops but I find it natural... If I hit an incline or a headwind I change down a gear or two to get the cadence up and thus increase the motor assistance along with upping my input. The Panasonic on the other hand would be adding in more power at this point. Horses for courses IMHO.

It's not perfect though, I do find the ramp up in assistance as crank speed increases to be a bit steep...I'd prefer if the ramp was a little more gentle and built up a bit more slowly, other than that it suits me well. BTW, congratulations on getting it all together.

I`ve just swapped everything around trying to find the compromise. My sensor has to be facing the magnet wheel (that is the plastic small box of tricks has to face the magnets) if I try it the other way around I get nothing(although the gap sort of get big and maybe that`s why)

So! with the sensor box of tricks facing the magnet plate having the arrows facing to direction that you would pedal! nothing. Now with that set up turn the crank in reverse and the wheel starts up. spin the magnet plate over so that the arrows are facing the wrong way, spin the crank forward and it works. That is the way I set it up in the first place.

The thing that foxed me is that the lower the gear the more help you get(just like you said) illogical in my mind. what happens is that as you pull away and progress the motor spins up very torquey( lovely) so now you gather some speed and the motor more or less forces you to change up becuase your little legs are spinning 10 to the dozen.(or stop pedalling and it all slows down so you pedal and it starts all over.)
Now you change up the gears for cruising and straight away the power falls away which in turn after a while you change down to maintain momentum because it`s like riding a bike without assistance and the process starts all over again

Now my powertrek works more or less the other way, it senses that you are pedaling slow and might need a touch of help and gives it to you and continues to do the same right the way up the gears till you more or less reach the 15mph limit. That way you are able to cruise around at a good pace in top gear and arrive fresh as a daisey. OK, you might say that you use up a bit more battery but that`s what it all about in my book.

What was depressing was struggling along in top gear, hardly hearing the motor helping you, open the throttle and away you go like a rocket has been put up your harris.

OK! This is the bike for a bit of training, help on the hills in low gear and you are more or less on your own once you hit the flat. Probably the way to use this bike is with the throttle where you have control. I`ve been spoilt by my powertrek

Let me just say that the hub motor is progressive and powerful and the battery they supply seems to hang onto the green light. There is no discernable drag when it`s turned off so maybe this is a conversion that would suit throttle only so that you can poodle along when you want(with or without assistance from the throttle) at your own pace in any gear that suits your mood and bring in the throttle as and when you need it.

I`ve got all my cranks stripped down at the moment:-( so now I`ll put it back together and maybe disconnect the pedal assist from the controller (I`ll leave the sensor all fitted just in case I change my mind)

Can I just say that Jim from Alien is a great guy who will go out of his way to help, the only reason I didn`t contact him is that I know there is a family member not too well at present and he can do without me winging on.

Thanks all for your input and help

 

[NRG]

Hi OT, interesting, next time I have the crank off I'll double check mine...

I fitted a switch to the pedelec sensor on my GSII to stop any unhappy tendencies for the bike to shoot off when setting off but yes, I can see if you're used to the Powertrek system then these simpler Pedelec systems seems to be wrong...still the Alien is better than those cheaper Chinese systems where you get all or nothing no matter how fast or slow you pedal!

I tend to ride my GSII more now with the Pedelec disabled and just use the throttle to give a gentle boost when needed. Yes, Jim is a great guy!

 

[onmebike]

Now with that set up turn the crank in reverse and the wheel starts up.


If turning the pedals in reverse starts the wheel turning, the magnets are passing the sensor in the wrong direction. The sensor itself appears to be directional. Leaving the sensor facing the magnets as described when turning the crank backwards, turn the sensor 180degrees in either a clock/anti clockwise direction in its holder/bracket[In other words from end to end].
Imagine the sensor has 123 written along the side facing the magnets when on the right side of the bike, the magnets pass them in the order 123 when turning the crank in the correct direction. Turning everything over to fit too the left hand side causes the magnets to pass the sensor in the order 321 when turning the crank in the correct direction. Flipping the sensor from end to end as described above should correct the order in which the magnets pass the sensor, 123?
Without having it in front of me its only guesswork.

Looked at the alien drawing, the pedelec sensor does have three wires, so is directional. Above should cure problem.

Another method may be? Leave everthing as was when turning the crank backwards and switch two of the sensor wires over. Assuming black is common/ground switch the two colours round. This should change the order of sensor switching so turning the crank in the correct direction starts the wheel turning.

 

[Old Timer]

Now with that set up turn the crank in reverse and the wheel starts up.


If turning the pedals in reverse starts the wheel turning, the magnets are passing the sensor in the wrong direction. The sensor itself appears to be directional. Leaving the sensor facing the magnets as described when turning the crank backwards, turn the sensor 180degrees in either a clock/anti clockwise direction in its holder/bracket[end to end].
Imagine the sensor has 123 written along the side facing the magnets when on the right side of the bike, the magnets pass them in the order 123 when turning the crank in the correct direction. Turning everything over to fit too the left hand side causes the magnets to pass the sensor in the order 321 when turning the crank in the correct direction. Flipping the sensor from end to end as described above should cure the problem.
Without having it in front of me its only guesswork.

Looked at the alien drawing, the pedelec sensor does have three wires, so is directional. Above should cure problem.

Don`t matter where (on a clock face) I position the sensor it works just the same.It has to have the small plastic box that houses the sensor facing the magnet ring. Turning the magnet plate over just denotes which way you have to turn the crank to get the wheel to move.
After reading NRG`s post who has fitted similar it seems that there isn`t a fault and that kind of pedelec works the way mine does. I could have saved myself several hours of stripping things down and rebuilding them but without doing that I would be no wiser.

So! only the one way to fit the set up( don`t matter what side of the crank you fit it) you just have to reverse the magnetic plate. I`ve rebuilt everything and disconnected the pedelec from the control box. Actually fitting a switch along the line like NRG has done is probably going to be a better bet rather than keep removing the control box cover if I want to put pedelec back into action and maybe the switch should be up on the handlebars so that it can be switched in at will.

Now I`m tired, hungry and knackered and have an early start in the morning so I reckon it`s dinner and fall asleep in front of the tele.

Dave

 

[onmebike]

Don`t matter where (on a clock face) I position the sensor it works just the same.It has to have the small plastic box that houses the sensor facing the magnet ring. Turning the magnet plate over just denotes which way you have to turn the crank to get the wheel to move.
After reading NRG`s post who has fitted similar it seems that there isn`t a fault and that kind of pedelec works the way mine does. I could have saved myself several hours of stripping things down and rebuilding them but without doing that I would be no wiser.

So! only the one way to fit the set up( don`t matter what side of the crank you fit it) you just have to reverse the magnetic plate. I`ve rebuilt everything and disconnected the pedelec from the control box. Actually fitting a switch along the line like NRG has done is probably going to be a better bet rather than keep removing the control box cover if I want to put pedelec back into action and maybe the switch should be up on the handlebars so that it can be switched in at will.

Now I`m tired, hungry and knackered and have an early start in the morning so I reckon it`s dinner and fall asleep in front of the tele.

Dave

Well, tried my best and did add another option to previous post, don't know if you saw that. It was all guesswork though. Must say it does seem strange that the faster you peddle the more assistance you get. If I've understood that correctly. What did the paperwork say?

Have a good one OT

 

[Paulius55]

I am really glad to read this post as I have found exactly the same issue with my Alien conversion - that is, I get a lot more assistance in the lower gears. This sort of makes sense as I am likely to change down to go up a hill and, frankly, I don't really need the assistance in top on the flat. It does feel strange though, as the difference is marked. I am getting used to it and I can always open the throttle if I want more assistance in top gear.

 

[onmebike]

I am really glad to read this post as I have found exactly the same issue with my Alien conversion - that is, I get a lot more assistance in the lower gears. This sort of makes sense as I am likely to change down to go up a hill and, frankly, I don't really need the assistance in top on the flat. It does feel strange though, as the difference is marked. I am getting used to it and I can always open the throttle if I want more assistance in top gear.

If you've fitted your sensor on the normal[crank] side, it must be a peculiarity of the kit as OT has found. Are you saying that as your pedalling becomes faster the assistance comes in more?

 

[Old Timer]

I am really glad to read this post as I have found exactly the same issue with my Alien conversion - that is, I get a lot more assistance in the lower gears. This sort of makes sense as I am likely to change down to go up a hill and, frankly, I don't really need the assistance in top on the flat. It does feel strange though, as the difference is marked. I am getting used to it and I can always open the throttle if I want more assistance in top gear.

P55

Forgive me if I`m wrong but the fact that you have said that you are glad I made the post! is that because you thought you might be going mad because it seems A*** about face? I suppose there is some sort of logic to it and being used to the opposite method it came as a surprise to me.
Now this is maybe where Flecc comes in! can you fit a switch using just one of the three wires? and which one

How does the assist work on the market leaders like wisper?

Thanks

 

[NRG]

I've shown the way I did it in my Alien modifications thread, there are a couple of ways to do it. There are three wires, + supply, - supply and sensor out. Mine where colored Red, Black & Blue. The Blue one is the sensor output, you could switch the Blue wire open circuit or perhaps the Red supply wire (never tried it) or as I did switch the Blue wire to the - supply wire via a shunt resistor to limit current flow.

What the Alien would benefit from is a power setting switch for the Pedelec, low/medium/high this would avoid the above issues...this is the way Wisper does it AFAIK.

 

[Old Timer]

I've shown the way I did it in my Alien modifications thread, there are a couple of ways to do it. There are three wires, + supply, - supply and sensor out. Mine where colored Red, Black & Blue. The Blue one is the sensor output, you could switch the Blue wire open circuit or perhaps the Red supply wire (never tried it) or as I did switch the Blue wire to the - supply wire via a shunt resistor to limit current flow.

What the Alien would benefit from is a power setting switch for the Pedelec, low/medium/high this would avoid the above issues...this is the way Wisper does it AFAIK.

Thanks

I`ll go and re-read that thread.

Dave

 

[Paulius55]

If you've fitted your sensor on the normal[crank] side, it must be a peculiarity of the kit as OT has found. Are you saying that as your pedalling becomes faster the assistance comes in more?

Yes, my sensor is on the crank side and I had to put it plastic side towards the magnet, to get any effect. With the magnet going the "right" way it only worked when the pedals were turned backwards but then I reversed the magnet ring and it works correctly. I can confirm that the assistance is greater as the pedalling gets faster. This means I have very little assistance in top because when I am pedalling at a reasonable rate in top it is getting near to 15mph anyway when the power would taper off. To be honest, having got used to it, I have no desire to change it as it does make sense. I never wanted the assistance to dominate the bike, just wanted a little extra push up hills, which I get simply by changing down 1 cog.

 

[Old Timer]

Yes, my sensor is on the crank side and I had to put it plastic side towards the magnet, to get any effect. With the magnet going the "right" way it only worked when the pedals were turned backwards but then I reversed the magnet ring and it works correctly. I can confirm that the assistance is greater as the pedalling gets faster. This means I have very little assistance in top because when I am pedalling at a reasonable rate in top it is getting near to 15mph anyway when the power would taper off. To be honest, having got used to it, I have no desire to change it as it does make sense. I never wanted the assistance to dominate the bike, just wanted a little extra push up hills, which I get simply by changing down 1 cog.

P55
Thanks for coming back, so I`m not going mad Well , I`ve just been out for a 8 mile exercise run( while the roads are dry for a change)on my Powertrek Dynamo that does the opposite to the kit pedelec. It has a flick switch on the bars that in one position allows you pedelec + throttle and in the other position no pedelec but throttle or your own legs. I`ve got to say that this is the ultimate in balance as far as I`m concerned.
For instance on route there is one hill in particular where I had to drop to number 3 on a 6 speed block, I didn`t want to drop any lower because the road is through a forest and is narrow so I wanted to clear the section ASAP and even in gear 3 the pedals were turning slow and the pedelec gave me all the help I needed without resorting to throttle and losing a touch of grip while I was really pulling on the handlebars. In fact to be honest the pedelec system on the Dynamo is about on the button as far as I can see. There are times when I maybe could do with a 7th gear but thats just carping really.
I checked my computer when I got back home and was surprised to read a max on the ride of 29.8mph which was obviously on a down hill section.
What I like about the Dynamo pedelec is like just now, came in from work, getting dark, wanted to do a ride fairly quickly before it got dark and any traffic( what traffic) and that system enabled me to stay in top gear for maybe 85-90% of the time, got my exercise and back indoors without breaking sweat.
As I said, I`ve disconnected the pedelec on the alien kit bike and will use the thottle to give me a boost. I reckon the alien will be my training bike as I get more fit because there is no drag and the Evans bike is fairly light to start with.
All good fun though.

 

[Old Timer]

Well, tried my best and did add another option to previous post, don't know if you saw that. It was all guesswork though. Must say it does seem strange that the faster you peddle the more assistance you get. If I've understood that correctly. What did the paperwork say?

Have a good one OT

Sorry, missed your post. All the info is on the download pdf file and the sensor in the picture sure looks like it`s the other way around but must be the light.
I`ve been considering breaking into a wire and switching it on the bars but to be quite honest apart from sourcing a water proof switch and mount I almost certainly won`t be riding it in assist mode. It just seems so illogical to me and more so after riding my other bike. As I see it you need the help when your crank is going slow. As you set off you get less help than when you reached some momentum. If the throttle was all or nothing then it might be worth the mod but the throttle is so progressive that you can twist in just what you need (in any gear at any speed up to the limit) and as I have said before that in top gear and throttle wide open I`m convinced mine is running faster than 15mph( I`ll reset my computer and test.) One thing for sure, it`s quite a powerful motor with no drag.

 

[onmebike]

Sorry, missed your post. All the info is on the download pdf file and the sensor in the picture sure looks like it`s the other way around but must be the light.
I`ve been considering breaking into a wire and switching it on the bars but to be quite honest apart from sourcing a water proof switch and mount I almost certainly won`t be riding it in assist mode. It just seems so illogical to me and more so after riding my other bike. As I see it you need the help when your crank is going slow. As you set off you get less help than when you reached some momentum. If the throttle was all or nothing then it might be worth the mod but the throttle is so progressive that you can twist in just what you need (in any gear at any speed up to the limit) and as I have said before that in top gear and throttle wide open I`m convinced mine is running faster than 15mph( I`ll reset my computer and test.) One thing for sure, it`s quite a powerful motor with no drag.

I must admit it doesn't sound right. As you move up through the gears the assistance drops off as you change up, then comes in harder as you gain speed. Doesn't that make the gear changes feel like you've jumped a couple of gears, going from assisted to hardly assisted on each change? Its not assistance where you most need it. It must make changing down feel weird too.