Alternative Batteries for Panasonic Systems

[tillson]

My 10 Ah Panasonic battery is approaching three years old and has provided excellent performance over many thousands of miles. It may well last for many months, or a sudden cold snap over the winter may kill it. This has caused me to consider alternative.

I guess that my options are another, excellent Panasonic battery or one of the Kalkhoff aftermarket batteries which are quite new on the scene and hence an unknown quantity. Either way, I will be faced with a £400 - £500 ish outlay, which probably isn't too bad considering the service that I have had and maybe still have to come from the original battery.

But is there another way to go? Is it possible to use one of the alternative batteries that I have seen mentioned on here and read so many favourable comments about. From memory, Ping and BMS are a couple of names that I have seen championed. I don't mind strapping a battery made by a Chinaman using nothing more than a saucepan, stove and some chemicals, to my bike but will it work? I am wondering if it is feasible to rack mount the battery and take the power from there to the motor. I know that it is physically possible to make the conection with the motor, but I'm unsure whether the Panasonic batteries contain circuits which integrate with the operation of the motor.

I'm not too bothered about the look of the finished product, as far as I am concerned my bike is just a tool to get to and from work on. Any thoughts / knowledge welcome.

Thank you.

 

[flecc]

There is a third pin connection between the motor and battery, but I can't say what monitoring function it has since I've never had the chance to investigate the battery internal circuitry. One knowledgeable user and Agattu owner thinks it's for temperature sensing.

I'm not confident that is the case and I suspect that the BMS and other management functions are partially split between the battery, the unit, and the multi-connection charger, a photo of the battery internals showing little evidence of circuitry within.

However, any battery you buy will have it's own management so will operate perfectly independently, so it comes down to whether the unit needs some sort of third connection to operate. I doubt it, but that's only a guess. With the circuit board heavily encapsulated and glued into the crankcase half, researching that would be extremely difficult as our physicist member 10mph found when attempting to explore the unit's functions.

I can't see any branch of the supply chain wanting to help with this query of course.

On the Kalkhoff batteries, since they are confident enough to claim 1100 charges, I'd guess that the lower capacity one would perform as well as your existing one. That might not hold true for the high density 18 Ah one though. (For their latest own Kalkhoff unit series of batteries, the 11 Ah one is specified as much longer lasting than the 15 Ah version, the cell content density making the difference.)
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[Deleted member 4366]

I know some bikes use a third wire to switch the BMS on via an ignition switch or whatever so that you don't have to have a heavy duty switch in the main supply wires. Does your bike have a switch somewhere other than on the battery?

A 26v battery is exactly that. I don't see why you shouldn't be able to get any 26v battery (normally designated 24v) and put it on a rack, then run the wires through the old case, and remove the old cells from that case so that you can use it as a toolbox like I did on my Cyclamatic. If your present battery is knackered, you've got nothing to lose by openeing it up to figure out where the connections are.

 

[flecc]

Does your bike have a switch somewhere other than on the battery?

These just have the power on/off button alongside the battery meter on the handlebar control unit. No switch anywhere else.

When switched on this triggers a 2 second self test function before starting the unit.

 

[tillson]

There is a power on/off push-button switch on the handlebars. This appears to be a light duty device used to switch a signal to the main motor circuit.

The battery isn't yet knackerd, but at three years old and approaching 10000 miles, I suppose it could give up at any time. Until this happens, I don't want to open the battery up, but would like to explore the options open to me when the time comes.

Edit: Crossed with flecc

 

[Deleted member 4366]

If I had one of those batteries in front of me, I'm sure I could figure something out, so if anybody's got a knackered one that they don't want that they could send me, I'll find a solution. I'll pay the postage.

 

[eddieo]

But what are you going to do with that ugly space left where battery used to be?

Maybe......Umbrella stand or flower pot holder?

 

[flecc]

It's occurred to me that the third connection won't be a BMS switch on function. The BMS is normally on all the time in these batteries but is switched off after approximately a couple of weeks of idleness to put the battery into a "sleep" mode for storage.

With a very few sales here starting right at the end of 2007 but mostly gradually increasing from spring 2008 onwards, there may not be many defunct batteries about, seeing as how Tillson's has lasted 3 years to date.

 

[flecc]

But what are you going to do with that ugly space left where battery used to be?

Maybe......Umbrella stand or flower pot holder?

Come now Eddie, this space on these bikes is hardly large or ugly, nothing like that on Wisper and eZee bikes for example. When I used to ride my Panasonic equipped Lafree without the battery it was hardly noticeable.
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[andyh2]

My second hand pro-connect is about 3 years and 5,000 miles old and is down to 60% capacity.

It will just about do my 15 mile round trip commute, but I usually charge at work as it's flagging a bit towards the end on the homeward journey otherwise.

Tillson, I'm interested to know after about how many miles and after how much time you got to 60% and how quickly it reduced from that?

Also do you have any sign that your rear hub is flagging at that sort of mileage?
Thanks

 

[bode]

Come now Eddie, this space on these bikes is hardly large or ugly, nothing like that on Wisper and eZee bikes for example. When I used to ride my Panasonic equipped Lafree without the battery it was hardly noticeable.
.

I use the redundant and empty battery case on my eZee Sprint as a convenient and lockable storage container for a tool and puncture repair kit (including spare tubes), and a pump. I did keep the battery case when I got a Ping battery because the bike looked odd without it!

 

[flecc]

That's a great idea when using a rack battery Bode, as you say the eZee frame does look odd with the battery out, like a wannabe Xtracycle.

 

[tillson]

My second hand pro-connect is about 3 years and 5,000 miles old and is down to 60% capacity.

It will just about do my 15 mile round trip commute, but I usually charge at work as it's flagging a bit towards the end on the homeward journey otherwise.

Tillson, I'm interested to know after about how many miles and after how much time you got to 60% and how quickly it reduced from that?

Also do you have any sign that your rear hub is flagging at that sort of mileage?
Thanks

It's difficult to determine at what stage in its life my battery has reached. The capacity measuring trick of holding down the button for several seconds doesn't really tell me much. My battery has been down to an indicated 60% capacity, only to recover back to an indicated 100% capacity when fully discharged to cut-off and then recharged. At present, my battery indicates 100% capacity and has done so for several months. The meter is lying to me though, it does not have 100% of its original capacity. The truth is that I can only estimate what state the battery is in.

My commute to and from work is 18 - 20 miles depending which route I take. Using medium power, the battery will just about complete the round trip and on a very warm day have enough charge left over for about another 5 miles. When new, the battery would probably complete the trip to - from and back to work again, with a bit left over. On low power, the battery easily completes the round trip and the overall range from the battery is probably 40 miles +.

I think that my particular battery has had quite a nice life as the vast majority of its use has been on low power. Had I used it exclusively on medium or high settings, it may not have lasted so well.

Although I can't complain about the service that I have had from the original battery and the price v performance economics are viable, I do like the idea of making a non-standard battery pack. As stated earlier, the bike is just a tool and I'm not really bothered what it looks like.

 

[Orraman]

I have used my 10 Ah Cyclone LiFp04 24V battery on my Panasonic bike with no problems and only 2 cables.

Dave

 

[tillson]

I have used my 10 Ah Cyclone LiFp04 24V battery on my Panasonic bike with no problems and only 2 cables.

Dave

OK, you have caught my interest. How did you do it?

Thank you.

 

[andyh2]

And mine

Thanks Tillson. I must admit I've been using mine on full power all the time

I'll have to start experimenting with the different levels.

 

[flecc]

I have used my 10 Ah Cyclone LiFp04 24V battery on my Panasonic bike with no problems and only 2 cables.

Dave

Thanks for the confirmation Dave.

Problem solved on that third connection in battery use mode, it's just the battery meter connection coupling the 5 LED integral meter signal through the main unit to the 3 LED handlebar meter, so it can be ignored for other battery use.

The mysterious fifth connection on these battery systems is the battery one nearest the rear of the bike and it's only in use when on the charger platform, so probably a battery temperature monitor as someone else had suspected.

For those wanting to use another make of battery, connections to the underside of the bike's battery platform battery platform are, platform pin nearest front of bike is the positive connection, pin nearest rear of bike is the negative connection. The remaining pin between those is redundant for this two connection use.
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[flecc]

Full illustrated information on using other batteries is now on this thread