Approved ebike list?

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
I absolutely agree Shemozzle.

BEBA have been working hard with the DfT and all concerned parties such as TRL, CTC and BAGB to bring much needed clarity to the market. Although BEBA membership is steadily growing with some of the bigger names showing interest in coming on board in the new year, it is a shame that more importers, distributors and dealers are not getting behind BEBA to create an even more unified voice. Maybe it's time that we all put aside petty politics and started working together as a team? BEBA are keen to welcome all good electric bike suppliers as long as they can live up to the BEBA code of practice, which is there to simply protect consumers. BEBA membership is not cheap at £395 for full members and £195 for retailers with Active members investing a lot more in time and travel. However if the electric bike market is to be taken seriously we really do need to work together with a unified voice.

BEBA has discussed making a new membership category available to enthusiasts at a much lower price, does anyone think this would be worthwhile at this stage?

BEBA's last meeting with the DfT and TRL at the Home Office was very successful, and full details including all the presentations are available for those companies that have supported the industry both alone and through BEBA they can be found in the BEBA members' Dropbox.

Here is a short synopsis for Pedelec readers.

DfT/TRL EAPC Regulation Review Workshop 19 November 2012

Introduction (TRL & DfT)

All e-bikes (throttle only capability beyond 6 km/h) would be in scope of the Regulation and would need to be EU Type Approved if sold in sufficient quantities.

Vehicles outside of the Regulation’s scope (i.e. pedelecs ≤250W and ≤25km/h and individually built cycles) would be subject to individual Member State requirements.

Power limit

There were no objections expressed to a 250W power limit being the dividing threshold between EAPCs (250W or below) and motorised vehicles (anything over 250W).

Weight limits

There were no objections to removing the weight limits from the current EAPC regs.

E-bikes (twist & go)

Further consensus was evident that there should be no distinction in GB in-use law between pedelecs and e-bikes; the 250W power limit and 25 km/h speed limit were sufficient.

There were thus two main categories envisaged:

1. Pedelecs meeting the “out of scope” definition of the EU Framework Regulation, but conformingto CEN Standard EN15194;

2. Twist & Go e-bikes meeting the ≤250W and ≤25km/h requirements but still being in scope of the Framework Regulation and thus subject to EU Type Approval

Data plates

It was agreed that it would be sufficient for EU Type Approved e-bikes to display the statutory plate required by the approval regulations.

There is, no requirement for system voltage to be limited or displayed, either in EU Type Approval or by EN15194.

Speed pedelecs,

i.e. bicycles powered by motors >250W and capable of providing motor assistance > 25 km/h (e.g. up to 40 km/h). These can currently be registered and used as mopeds provided they are type approved, the rider wears a motorcycle helmet, has the correct driving licence, insurance and taxed.

I hope that gives a little more clarity.

Anyone wanting to get behind the industry by joining the team at BEBA please drop me a line and I will arrange for a membership pack to go out to them.

All the best

David
Unfortunately, removing the weight limit and retaining some sort of motor power measurement requirement is what will make it near-impossible to get a DIY or kit built ebike to meet the regulations. This seems a backward step for the DIY/kit market.

The problem is a straightforward one. To be safe, in terms of restricting collision kinetic energy to that which might be be expected from a heavy conventional bicycle then speed and mass needs to be limited. Motor power is not only a red herring, it is also awkward and potentially expensive to prove to be within the regulatory requirements for one-off kit or DIY builds. Power depends so much on the actual bike build, because of the wide variation in losses and varying loads with bike type, that it is hard to see how a DIY ebike builder could have any idea as to what the figure might be.

Even if the DIY ebike market was restricted to only be able to use sealed, certified, controller and motor combinations there would still be no way of knowing what the true power might be when installed on a bike. Ten minutes spent with a calculator and some motor and bike parameters will quickly show the wide range of power output available from the same motor and controller on differently configured bikes, especially for hub motors.

BEBA sounds a great idea in principle, but I really cannot see people digging into their pockets to join. Given that it seems there are some UK vendors who don't belong to BEBA it is perhaps pushing it if BEBA takes it upon itself to define new regulations with the DfT.

Any tidy up of the rather messy situation we have at the moment needs to involve those most deeply affected by it. That does not seem to me to be most UK vendors, it seems likely that it is the consumers who wish to convert a bike, together with the UK suppliers of conversion components, that need to lead this, not the vendors of ready built and approved EPACS.

Just my opinion, BTW.
 
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Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,239
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69
Sevenoaks Kent
All good points Jeremy.

It was felt that weight limits were not necessary as it would be self regulating so to save red tape it was agreed we should not add to EN15194 in this respect. As you say we are working towards a simple tidy up rather than a messy solution.

Regarding BEBA, we really wish that more of the industry was involved, it is not a closed shop. At the moment BEBA seems to be the only organization in the UK that represents the interests of any electric bike dealer or distributor. BEBA also asks for and takes into account the points of view made in this forum when presenting to the Authorities. So although not perfect BEBA is the best we have at the moment, happily our voice is recognised and our point of view is sort after by the authorities.

BEBA is already giving a voice to Pedelec members and the electric bike industry, so it interests me why although people want to be involved in the process they shy away from joining in. Surely it isn't just the money? If we were simply to leave it to luck nothing would have happened and we would probably be in the process of completely losing the throttle. Even though BEBA currently does not represent the whole market at least it is a voice for anyone that wants to become involved.

It is a lot of hard work even to do what we are doing now, so it would be great to get as many on board as possible to share the load.

All the best

David
 
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Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
I think the main thing that concerns me is that BEBA, although a good idea in principle, does not seem to be wholly representative of all, or even most, ebike riders in the UK.

The laws effect all of us who ride ebikes. Clearly EN15194 isn't negotiable, it's been a done deal for years. My concern is with all the many thousands of people riding ebikes of uncertain legality, and ensuring that the legal future of DIY conversions is retained in the UK. The current UK legislation (SI 1168 and SI 1176) specifically mention pedal cycles converted to EAPCs. It is vital that we retain that right in a practical form, one that does not require builders to undertake a costly approval process.

I agree that weight can be left out of EN15194, because the most used power and speed compliance demonstration assessment methods take bike weight into account anyway (i.e. Annex D). However, only defining weight and maximum power assist speed is far and away the most effective method of ensuring that DIY converted ebikes are safe.

It is essential that this message gets conveyed to the DfT, and that they fully grasp the vital importance of kinetic energy in terms of ensuring public safety.

On the subject of BEBA membership costs, I think that many consumers will fight shy of digging into their pockets at all to get their voice heard within their own elected government, particularly when that voice might well be drowned out by commercial interest.
 

neptune

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 30, 2012
1,743
353
Boston lincs
You are probably right Jeremy, an electric bike club for consumers is probably not such a great idea. It was just a thought! :)

All the best

David
I am missing something here, why is it not a good idea? Why can`t BEBA have several membership levels? In addition to the existing arrangement, there could be a type of membership for small or new retailers at say £50 per year, and a membership for bike owners costing as little as £5 to £10 per year. They could then truly claim to represent ebiking. One benefit might be that as a group we could then negotiate cheap insurance for those wanting it. It should be all about being inclusive, not exclusive.
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,239
2,214
69
Sevenoaks Kent
Thanks Neptune!

If the general consensus is for an inexpensive membership for consumers we will certainly look at it. I personally think it would work.

Also great idea re the £50 membership for smaller retailers! Thanks for that, as the membership sec. I will certainly suggest it to Mark and the board.

All the best

David
 

shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
2,826
686
Hi David,

My contributions to this thread have only been born out of necessity.

I would have preferred not to divulge this but on a personal note I provide care for my ageing mother and can not afford to be in any doubt about whether I am riding a legal bike.

What little time I have to myself recently has been spilt between, two related items involving the DfT and the DfT/Local Council, posting here and resolving Blue Badge renewal (now resolved after 3 months).

I would like to return to re-building my bike and grabbing the odd hour to get out and use the numerous local tracks here in Milton Keynes free of the worry of legality.
 

Old_Dave

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 15, 2012
1,211
2
Dumfries & Galloway
+1 with wot Neptune said

But of course with caveats


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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RobF

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 22, 2012
4,732
2,312
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
....... can not afford to be in any doubt about whether I am riding a legal bike.

I would like to return to re-building my bike and grabbing the odd hour to get out and use the numerous local tracks here in Milton Keynes free of the worry of legality.
I can solve the first bit about the doubt. Your bike's illegal. As I said before, if you absolutely must have a legal bike, get a Sinclaire Zyke because that's about the only one.
 

Jeremy

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 25, 2007
1,010
3
Salisbury
It'd be interesting to know just how many illegal ebikes there are in the UK. It must run into thousands, as there are a large number of nondescript generic ebikes without approval that have been sold here, plus there seem to be a fair number of ebikes built from kits or components, either imported or sold by UK companies (including BEBA members, despite their veneer of legality).

I think the number is now too large to rely on the system continuing to turn a blind eye, the DfT need to get off their backside and do something to allow these ebikes owners to return to being law abiding citizens.

I remain unconvinced that a trade association is going to have the interests of this group of consumers at heart, I'm afraid.
 

Miles

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 4, 2006
504
1
I remain unconvinced that a trade association is going to have the interests of this group of consumers at heart, I'm afraid.
I'm inclined to agree.

At the talks, so far, have been two trade associations and the CTC....

How do we organise? Request forum section here? Separate forum?

Scope?
 

shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
2,826
686
I can solve the first bit about the doubt. Your bike's illegal. As I said before, if you absolutely must have a legal bike, get a Sinclaire Zyke because that's about the only one.
Even this is a grey area d8evh, the first Brompton was a shop built conversion purchased from a Pedelec member 3 years ago and I still have the original shop receipt.

It was purchased for use by a member of my immediate family but I was so impressed with it that I then went out and bought and converted a Brompton for my own use.

The original has now returned into my possession after serving its intended purpose.

Question is which, if any, might be deemed legal after the introduction of the proposed changes.

Hence my determination to try and get an easily understandable definition of the current and future state of affairs.

If I was to be honest even after reading the latest from BEBA I am still not fully aware of what it actually means and if someone could translate it into pigeon English I would be very grateful.
 

shemozzle999

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 28, 2009
2,826
686
I remain unconvinced that a trade association is going to have the interests of this group of consumers at heart, I'm afraid.
I too have doubts Jeremy.

I would have more confidence as a consumer if the dealers could find some common ground and strengthen their position as a meaningful association.

I am sure their common aim is to develop the industry so all sections can sustain a living from their efforts.

Maybe with the forthcoming trade show they could all sit down around the table and try and thrash out a suitable solution for them all rather than air them publicly on the forum.

They would then be free to develop their own particular areas of the market and benefit from regaining the confidence of their customers and build up their returning customer base, which is vital for a successful business.
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,239
2,214
69
Sevenoaks Kent
Hi Shemozzle

In a nutshell as Jeremy says very few bikes sold in the UK are within the letter of the law as it stands. The main reason being that 99% of the bikes sold in the UK have motors rated at 250W.

The Wisper bikes currently being used by both Sussex and City of London police are completely legal as both forces have paid extra for us to install 200W motors. Other forces have not been not so particular.

All of the bikes sold by BEBA members as far as I know are legal in Europe and most of them conform to EN15194 with the exception that some have a throttle. The use of the throttle is currently legal in the UK on all pedelecs. Due to BEBA's intervention it is very likely to remain legal as long as the manufacturers/distributors have all bikes with a throttle Type Approved. (TA is required for bikes with throttles that operate past 6KPM without the need for the pedals to be turning in a forward direction)

BEBA floored two questions at the November meeting.

Both questions and answers are from memory and should not be taken as the definitive situation, however Wisper and Hero Eco who were represented at the meeting and other BEBA members I have spoken to are happy to continue working within the spirit of these answers.

1. Will bikes fitted with a throttle prior to the new regulations coming into force be considered illegal when the new regulations are law?

Answer; Grandfather rights will prevail in this matter due to the numbers of such bikes being on the road already.

2. Due to the fact that 99% of EPACS and E bikes currently being sold in the UK have 250W rated motors in conjunction with the European standard EN15194, will the DfT be taking action against any one selling or riding these bikes.

Answer; As bikes conforming to EN15194 are already legal in Europe and we will be adopting EN15194 in the UK in the near future, it is very unlikely that the DfT would support any such prosecutions.

I don't think we will get any more than this from the DfT before the introduction of the new regulations in the UK.

Knowing the facts and being involved in the talks, in my seriously considered opinion the use of 250W motors is OK as long as the bikes conform or better still are certified to EN15194, however this is only my personal opinion. The majority of good, reliable electric bikes for sale in the UK are certified to EN15194 and the manufacturers/distributors will have the certificates on file or already shown on their web pages. So it will not be difficult to find one.

All the best

David
 
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D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Jeez, what a mess: about 100,000 ebikes in the UK and nearly all of them illegal. It could only happen here! No wonder nobody's been prosecuted. It would just expose the mess. Well, it won't be causing me any worry. I'll just carry on riding my bike knowing that I'm going to win the lottery or be wiped out by an asteroid before I get prosecuted for it.
 

Wisper Bikes

Trade Member
Apr 11, 2007
6,239
2,214
69
Sevenoaks Kent
Originally Posted by Jeremy

I remain unconvinced that a trade association is going to have the interests of this group of consumers at heart, I'm afraid.

***************

I too have doubts Jeremy.

I would have more confidence as a consumer if the dealers could find some common ground and strengthen their position as a meaningful association.

I am sure their common aim is to develop the industry so all sections can sustain a living from their efforts.

Maybe with the forthcoming trade show they could all sit down around the table and try and thrash out a suitable solution for them all rather than air them publicly on the forum.

They would then be free to develop their own particular areas of the market and benefit from regaining the confidence of their customers and build up their returning customer base, which is vital for a successful business.
Please can I assure everyone that BEBA absolutely has the interests of consumers, dealers and distributors at heart. We are in this not only because we love electric bikes but also we are trying hard to make a living. Giving consumers good, dependable bikes that are legal in the UK is our top priority. I am not saying we are saints, this is simply good commercial sense. If we look after the consumers the industry will grow and we will sell more bikes, all very basic stuff.

BEBA are discussing the possibility of holding a meeting that will be open to everyone on the evening before the Electric Bike World Championship in Bristol this year. (Although we are concerned that there will be heckling from the usual suspects.) If we think the meeting will be a positive and constructive look at the way forward BEBA members will be happy to fund the meeting room etc. What do you think?

All the best

David