Battery BMS advise or input sort

[Baz the balloon man]

Hi All

I thought I would post this .

I took this nearly new battery in a PX deal which someone damaged whilst trying to open.

They stabbed the cells whilst trying to open. They are difficult to open as now glued and screwed in the factory .

I will be taking it too a battery company in London but before I do I would like to just have a bit more knowledge of the battery .

It’s from a late Carrera

I plan to have the damaged cells replaced and have a standard BMS fitted.
I may have some if they are the same cells as the last one I tried to repair but damaged through lack of experience and knowledge

I intend take out the on and off switch on the top of the battery and repair the hole with two pac plastic filler and a little fiber glass on the inside.

Possibly fit a new on and off switch and fuses there is room in the case .
Change the jack to standard one that will fit my YOSE charger that is exactly the same voltage output ECT as the Phylion Carrera one that charges HL 36V batteries.

I intend to use this one for my test kit ie testing parts mainly Carrera Suntours that I sell on e bay so the Canbus communication is not needed or wanted

Some advise on a good quality safe BMS that will match this set up would be very help full before a]I take it to the battery company so I can then listen to their advise with an opinion.

I have been looking at what is available on from top bike for instance but not sure what is suitable

Brands to avoid would be helpful..

Cheers
Baz

 

[saneagle]

Whilst what you're proposing will probably work, you're leave yourself wide open to a lawsuit and/or potential prosecution if you sell modified stuff like that. It's one thing to repair your own bike, but doing that for profit will get you in trouble, especially considering the present hysteria on battery fires.

You don't need a battery for testing an ebike. I always run a couple of wires from a charger or power supply. You only need one or two amps for testing as long as you do it with the wheel off the ground.

 

[Baz the balloon man]

Whilst what you're proposing will probably work, you're leave yourself wide open to a lawsuit and/or potential prosecution if you sell modified stuff like that. It's one thing to repair your own bike, but doing that for profit will get you in trouble, especially considering the present hysteria on battery fires.

You don't need a battery for testing an ebike. I always run a couple of wires from a charger or power supply. You only need one or two amps for testing as long as you do it with the wheel off the ground.

Ok understood I have not attempted to sell any thing like this still have the original battery that Mathew tried to help me repair .

As I get them in if not working I will just ask the battery company to swap out Original BMS boards to good battery packs like for like .

That said I did have a idear to possibly then do this as part of a conversion kit aftermarket for Carrera save making new battery mounts so I see there would be all sorts safety certificate’s and regulations to get through to make this work so probably simpler to make universal battery mounts for different bikes .
And change the whole lot .

I usually use A HL Battery 15Amp KT rigged up on the bench to test the Suntours and other motors using a throttle to make sure they are working will this not eventually damage a charger putting direct current into the controller from a charger ?

When I buy a Carrera with no or broken battery and need to make sure the motor is working before I sell it .

 

[Baz the balloon man]

They have a defunct Bird battery in for repair , if it needs cells I will salvage these if suitable as I have Two of them with the same cells .

Should help with the bill hopefully

 

[Cadence]

As you appear to be running a business, do you have public liability insurance? Does your battery repairer? Bear mind that any decent insurer will ask you to declare your competences (qualifications and experience). In the event of a claim, if you can't prove that you operated within them you will not be covered.

 

[saneagle]

They have a defunct Bird battery in for repair , if it needs cells I will salvage these if suitable as I have Two of them with the same cells .

Should help with the bill hopefully

I do battery repairs as favours for people that need them. I never charged anybody for it because of the liability issues - and that's mainly before we had all that fuss about batteries catching fire. The problem is that the battery might catch fire because of some other random cause or something that the user did to it, but everybody's going to be pointing at you.

 

[Baz the balloon man]

As you appear to be running a business, do you have public liability insurance? Does your battery repairer? Bear mind that any decent insurer will ask you to declare your competences (qualifications and experience). In the event of a claim, if you can't prove that you operated within them you will not be covered.

Hi yes I do have public liability doubt if it covers this only dangerous gas at the moment with gas safety certificates can we get a battery safety certificate for insurance purposes ?

The Battery company is in a work space probably funded by the local authorities they are actually making batteries for the Pedelech taxis that are working in the west end of London so I imagine they have some sort certification in place but maybe not .

Hope they did not make the one that caught fire out side the west end theatre !!!!!

But on the other hand and it’s the reason I sort advise before going ahead who is actually regulating theses companies? Who is regulating Alibaba and all the very dangerous crap coming into the country.

Fair enough with what Saneagle posted and taken on board frankly I had nor]t got that far , but provided any alteration to a basic battery pack was done to a very high standard by a competent professional then I can not see who is going to enforce this especially when Joe Public or at least some of them go at batteries without a clue or get involved in an accident drop and damage a battery y]then still use it .
But the question of liability is a very good point .

If the information that I have is correct from Halfords and from the main distribution company of Suntours in the UK once the current stock of Carrera Batteries has been sold there will be no more to be had .

Apparently they stopped professional battery companies from purchasing BMS boards some time ago .

A very experienced electronics expert who I asked yesterday if we could get good copy’s made of the BMS came back to me today and said the manufacturer does not want any one servicing these batteries at all .
Nice little earner at £500.00 a pop then they go to sleep .
I bought a new Bosh dishwasher last week for £500.00 with a 3 year warranty good comparison of a company taking the Michael.

So now if all true where does that leave the many thousands of customers who have bought these bikes over the last several years as all the parts are linked ? So if like a lot of people over the winter who’s battery has dropped to just below 10V their bike is shortly going to be scrap.

Bit of a betrayal ? At least Bird went Bankrupt.

If good experts on here or other forums can safely help with this then why not there is risk with everything we do .

I have decided to go down the universal battery mount route to fit to these bikes and sell some a HL battery unless they want to spend more up front and give zero discount for a £500.00 battery that is asleep .

But I would still like some opinions on a decent BMS for my own use and give my word on here publicly that I will not re sell it.

 

[saneagle]

Hi yes I do have public liability doubt if it covers this only dangerous gas at the moment with gas safety certificates can we get a battery safety certificate for insurance purposes ?

The Battery company is in a work space probably funded by the local authorities they are actually making batteries for the Pedelech taxis that are working in the west end of London so I imagine they have some sort certification in place but maybe not .

Hope they did not make the one that caught fire out side the west end theatre !!!!!

But on the other hand and it’s the reason I sort advise before going ahead who is actually regulating theses companies? Who is regulating Alibaba and all the very dangerous crap coming into the country.

Fair enough with what Saneagle posted and taken on board frankly I had nor]t got that far , but provided any alteration to a basic battery pack was done to a very high standard by a competent professional then I can not see who is going to enforce this especially when Joe Public or at least some of them go at batteries without a clue or get involved in an accident drop and damage a battery y]then still use it .
But the question of liability is a very good point .

If the information that I have is correct from Halfords and from the main distribution company of Suntours in the UK once the current stock of Carrera Batteries has been sold there will be no more to be had .

Apparently they stopped professional battery companies from purchasing BMS boards some time ago .

A very experienced electronics expert who I asked yesterday if we could get good copy’s made of the BMS came back to me today and said the manufacturer does not want any one servicing these batteries at all .
Nice little earner at £500.00 a pop then they go to sleep .
I bought a new Bosh dishwasher last week for £500.00 with a 3 year warranty good comparison of a company taking the Michael.

So now if all true where does that leave the many thousands of customers who have bought these bikes over the last several years as all the parts are linked ? So if like a lot of people over the winter who’s battery has dropped to just below 10V their bike is shortly going to be scrap.

Bit of a betrayal ? At least Bird went Bankrupt.

If good experts on here or other forums can safely help with this then why not there is risk with everything we do .

I have decided to go down the universal battery mount route to fit to these bikes and sell some a HL battery unless they want to spend more up front and give zero discount for a £500.00 battery that is asleep .

But I would still like some opinions on a decent BMS for my own use and give my word on here publicly that I will not re sell it.

I think you'd be OK repairing fuses in a battery or re-joining wires that became unsoldered, but if you swap a BMS with comms to one that doesn't, it's like bypassing the safety controls.

 

[Baz the balloon man]

Yes ok but that’s exactly what I do not understand ,
And why I am not attempting to do it myself as I am not competent to do it .

Just trying to work out which BMS boards are good quality and which to avoid if I pay someone to do this .

Once all the manufacturers labels are removed then we are just left with a case and a bog standard battery pack unless I am missing something ?

If this battery block in the photo is just now constructed like a bog standard battery pack with no other components attached . Then surely there must be a suitable good quality BMS without comms that can do the same job on a 36V 11.5AH battery or are they designed in the cell groups in a way that it must have comms with the charger ?

 

[saneagle]

Yes ok but that’s exactly what I do not understand ,
And why I am not attempting to do it myself as I am not competent to do it .

Just trying to work out which BMS boards are good quality and which to avoid if I pay someone to do this .

Once all the manufacturers labels are removed then we are just left with a case and a bog standard battery pack unless I am missing something ?

If this battery block in the photo is just now constructed like a bog standard battery pack with no other components attached . Then surely there must be a suitable good quality BMS without comms that can do the same job on a 36V 11.5AH battery or are they designed in the cell groups in a way that it must have comms with the charger ?

The comms is completely within the BMS. The charger and battery exchange information on whether conditions are right to charge, and if they're not, charging is disallowed. You don't get that on a dumb battery, so if conditions aren't right, the charger will still attempt to charge.

 

[Waspy]

the reason I sort advise...

Mate, a word to the wise, the above line should read, "the reason I sought advice..."

I'm not trying to be a smartass, just trying to help you.

Good luck with your ebike/battery repair journey.

 

[Baz the balloon man]

Mate, a word to the wise, the above line should read, "the reason I sought advice..."

I'm not trying to be a smartass, just trying to help you.

Good luck with your ebike/battery repair journey.

Ok thanks but I am a bit dyslexic when it comes to spelling , I drive auto correct around the bend it can be very frustrating ie one day I can spell bicycle just had 3 attempts other days like just then I can not

 

[Baz the balloon man]

Going back on subject and in ( the Rory ) that was spell check for Theroy give up !!!

There must be a legal and safe way to take say the latest Carrera battery and re manufacture it just keeping the case , cells , and cell holder with no comms

Here in the UK with a new CE or other manufacturer mark and new correct labelling .
And ahdearing to any safety standards and regulation for the re manufacture of used Lithium Iron Batteries?

I am going to attempt to do one a prototype for my own use .

But to be honest I do not think at this point it will be commercially viable when all that’s needed is a more bespoke kit so people can swap these bikes out themselves and have a bit of choice in cost and quality of components .

Or get a bike shop to do it .

V. Halfords and Co do such a good job with marketing and sales most people do not want to believe it when you tell then you can do some thing a bit better for less money .

Building the bikes is still a bit of a hobby side line at the moment the main business so far for me is selling quality used tested spares spares

 

[saneagle]

Going back on subject and in ( the Rory ) that was spell check for Theroy give up !!!

There must be a legal and safe way to take say the latest Carrera battery and re manufacture it just keeping the case , cells , and cell holder with no comms

Here in the UK with a new CE or other manufacturer mark and new correct labelling .
And ahdearing to any safety standards and regulation for the re manufacture of used Lithium Iron Batteries?

I am going to attempt to do one a prototype for my own use .

But to be honest I do not think at this point it will be commercially viable when all that’s needed is a more bespoke kit so people can swap these bikes out themselves and have a bit of choice in cost and quality of components .

Or get a bike shop to do it .

V. Halfords and Co do such a good job with marketing and sales most people do not want to believe it when you tell then you can do some thing a bit better for less money .

Building the bikes is still a bit of a hobby side line at the moment the main business so far for me is selling quality used tested spares spares

You will never get a certificate of safety for a battery after you've downgraded the safety controls in it or substituted it for one that has a lower level of safety controls. What you're doing is not illegal. The problem is the liability if something goes wrong that might not be your fault. Police and fire services will probably be looking for scapegoats to make examples of in order to discourage anybody from interfering with a battery. It's the wrong time for you to get involved. The only way you could get approval for what you're doing is to make it better (safer) than it was before.

 

[Sparksandbangs]

Ok thanks but I am a bit dyslexic when it comes to spelling , I drive auto correct around the bend it can be very frustrating ie one day I can spell bicycle just had 3 attempts other days like just then I can not

My mind sees sort and sought as completely different words with no link. So when I see this title with sort in it I can't compute and it takes a while to be able to decipher.

The only way I can explain it is to me, it is like adding a random word in there for example 'BMS battery advice or input penguin'. Completely baffling.

Not a criticism, just an observation.

It's funny how the old brain works. We all have different wiring.

 

[Baz the balloon man]

You will never get a certificate of safety for a battery after you've downgraded the safety controls in it or substituted it for one that has a lower level of safety controls. What you're doing is not illegal. The problem is the liability if something goes wrong that might not be your fault. Police and fire services will probably be looking for scapegoats to make examples of in order to discourage anybody from interfering with a battery. It's the wrong time for you to get involved. The only way you could get approval for what you're doing is to make it better (safer) than it was before.

Ah so putting a very good quality BMS and input and output fuses could be taken as making it better or even safer.

Has any though of any thing else that could make it safer ie some sort of fire resistant blanket over shrink wrap some sort of fire resistant light weight fibre even if it considerably slowed down combustion?

Fire resistant input and out put wires do they exist ? I know you can get large twin and earth have a bid roll in my shed .

 

[Baz the balloon man]

My mind sees sort and sought as completely different words with no link. So when I see this title with sort in it I can't compute and it takes a while to be able to decipher.

The only way I can explain it is to me, it is like adding a random word in there for example 'BMS battery advice or input penguin'. Completely baffling.

Not a criticism, just an observation.

It's funny how the old brain works. We all have different wiring.

Iam not to bad just spelling has good teachers in English who made allowances once the realised the cause.

Spell correct has helped me write more but as said sometimes it does not recognise what I am trying to say , I think my brain goes faster than I can right wright ?

 

[saneagle]

Ah so putting a very good quality BMS and input and output fuses could be taken as making it better or even safer.

Not in their eyes. They'll ask the manufacturer (eg Suntour), what they think of your modification. They'll simply say that it's unsafe to interfere with any ebike battery. You seem to be missing the point that they put the comms there for safety. It's asking all the time whether it's OK to continue charging or using the battery, and if if it isn't OK, it'll shutdown. Any court would ask you why you'd want to remove that feature. You'd say that it's annoying because it keeps shutting the battery and rendering it useless. I don't think that's going to go down too well.

When it's your own bike, you can play dumb, but when you do it for someone else and charge them, then it catches fire because of their own stupidity, the fire service will ask them why it caught fire and ask if it was modified in any way. I don't think they'll have too much problem pointing to you and what you did.

If nothing goes wrong, everything will be fine, but if it does, you take a massive dive.

It's a bit like working on a gas boiler. The law says anybody, who works on a gas boiler must be competent, without defining exactly what that means. If nothing goes wrong, you could argue that it was because the repairer was competent, but when it bursts into flames or somebody wakes up dead from carbon monoxide poisoning, they'll be asking about the competence of the guy, who did the repair. If the guy has a certificate of competence, he has a chance, otherwise he'll be deemed incompetent and go to jail.

 

[Baz the balloon man]

Not in their eyes. They'll ask the manufacturer (eg Suntour), what they think of your modification. They'll simply say that it's unsafe to interfere with any ebike battery. You seem to be missing the point that they put the comms there for safety. It's asking all the time whether it's OK to continue charging or using the battery, and if if it isn't OK, it'll shutdown. Any court would ask you why you'd want to remove that feature. You'd say that it's annoying because it keeps shutting the battery and rendering it useless. I don't think that's going to go down too well.

When it's your own bike, you can play dumb, but when you do it for someone else and charge them, then it catches fire because of their own stupidity, the fire service will ask them why it caught fire and ask if it was modified in any way. I don't think they'll have too much problem pointing to you and what you did.

If nothing goes wrong, everything will be fine, but if it does, you take a massive dive.

It's a bit like working on a gas boiler. The law says anybody, who works on a gas boiler must be competent, without defining exactly what that means. If nothing goes wrong, you could argue that it was because the repairer was competent, but when it bursts into flames or somebody wakes up dead from carbon monoxide poisoning, they'll be asking about the competence of the guy, who did the repair. If the guy has a certificate of competence, he has a chance, otherwise he'll be deemed incompetent and go to jail.

I see so comms is not just the communication between controller and battery it’s also linked to the charger for safety reasons not to just protect intellectual copy right .
Thats helpful .

So to do a re manufacture using only the cells and case ie salvaging used parts that in theory One could just buy ie like HL battery cases ECT then you would have to remove all the other Suntour components?

Which would have been the plan as they won’t work with the other components except the motor.

But it’s not financially viable unless the battery is worth around £500.00 when done for re builds using non Suntours parts.

That leaves just salvaging good cells in place of putting them in the bin once the BMS boards are gone as this appears to be the main problem with these batteries rather that used to end of life of the cells so they fail for that reason

Or making batteries for personal use only for those who would be hobbyist when making there own e bikes and felt confident to do it but again the used cost of a lock and mount is around £55.00 the cost of a decent manufactured universal mount say £20.00

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