Battery problem - with background

[cwah]

If you are not tech minded, sell your frog pack as it will never be fixed, and get a bottle mount battery:
https://bmsbattery.com/index.php?id_product=679&controller=product

 

[JamesW]

I got the whole conversion kit from Bob which I attached to my existing bike. If the battery mount style is not fit for purpose and is going to cause failure, that explains why they have stopped selling them. It also suggests that I should be able to get a full refund. - possibly from my credit card company.

 

[JamesW]

may be you should meet Bob half way.
Batteries do suffer a great deal on bumpy roads, made worse when it's not in use regulary. Long gaps between ride create unbalance between the cells. Did you buy just the battery or the whole bike from Bob?

When the battery was working, I was using it every weekday. Unfortunately looking at my records I had a different issue with the kit every 3-5 weeks! When I was ill the battery didn't get used/ charged for 3 months as the case was damaged. After fixing I did over 100 miles before sudden battery performance failure last week! (75 between Sunday pm and dropout Thursday evening with charges every morning and night to keep it topped up!)

 

[JamesW]

It would be nice to get some sleep tonight. I've got a big project to finish at work this week, instead I'm lying here awake stressing about the bike battery after 2am (again!)

 

[trex]

A 36V 10AH battery should do 30 miles if you are moderately fit.
Typically, your battery capacity drops a little with each charging cycle. You have done about 170 cycles out of 500, a drop in capacity is expected, so don't jump to any conclusion just yet, let's make sure that your problem is not temperature related.
For that, try not to pull too many Amps from the battery and run the battery for 20 miles like you used to do then measure the voltage again.
The battery may not be faulty - it's out of balance but still not dead yet, give it a chance to rebalance itself.

 

[JamesW]

A 36V 10AH battery should do 30 miles if you are moderately fit.
Typically, your battery capacity drops a little with each charging cycle. You have done about 170 cycles out of 500, a drop in capacity is expected, so don't jump to any conclusion just yet, let's make sure that your problem is not temperature related.
For that, try not to pull too many Amps from the battery and run the battery for 20 miles like you used to do then measure the voltage again.
The battery may not be faulty - it's out of balance but still not dead yet, give it a chance to rebalance itself.

OK I will try to find a small flat 5 mile loop to do 4 times that will allow me to drain the battery slowly before recharging next time and see if this resolves the battery issue.

Frog batteries are by themselves unfit for purpose. A battery pack is way too heavy to be handled on a single metal hand.

I had one before and it failed within 3 months. Same for other member. Fix will only be temporary ...
Otherwise, you should get a pack mounted in a rear rack or a bottle battery. That would solve your problems.

This to me seems an equally serious issue and suggests that even if I do get the battery issue sorted and trex is correct about the balancing of the cells, the whole kit is not fit for purpose on 3 counts:

1) the battery case broke on a normal road
(see pic above)
2) the cells became unbalanced as a result of this - or as a result of my normal ride. Either is just as bad as the other.
3) my bike frame could be irreparable damaged by a second design defect in the battery mounting style which I have not hither to been aware of!

 

[trex]

There is no danger that the battery causes problems for the frame.
you should search the forum for d8veh's posts about mounting the frog batteries. With a little re-inforcing, it should work well for many years. D8veh may have already done this for you before sending you his casing. Slowly drain the battery until you get to near low voltage cutout (32V) then recharging should give it a chance to sort itself out.

 

[JamesW]

There is no danger that the battery causes problems for the frame.
you should search the forum for d8veh's posts about mounting the frog batteries. With a little re-inforcing, it should work well for many years. D8veh may have already done this for you before sending you his casing. Slowly drain the battery until you get to near low voltage cutout (32V) then recharging should give it a chance to sort itself out.

hmm. I couldn't get my seatpost clamp any tighter than it already is - even using a G-clamp to close it, so I had to cut up and old tyre and wrap it around the seatpost under the bracket to pad out the post. It seems to act as a bit of battery suspension and damp vibrations from the wheels a bit.
- I'm still paranoid though.

D8veh only sent me the plastic case for the battery, nothing else and certainly nothing has been reinforced yet!

On a separate note - I have just realised I can use the credit card company and so I have started a section 75 claim. Wish I had realised this months ago!
( http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases )
I rather suspect that part of Bob's reluctance to continue with the warrantee was the continuing mounting costs after only 5months of use when he is only a small business. (Also I am more reluctant to go small claims and damage a small company that had been providing good service up until then than damage the bonus of a fatcat in a large corporation with an ombudsman as backup!)

 

[JuicyBike]

Hi James
Very sorry indeed to hear that you are so dissatisfied with the service you have received from us.

Clearly you are very upset and angry.

Our records show that you purchased the kit last February for £495.
You asked for a new charger in April, suspecting it may be faulty. We sent one to you straight away. In June you asked for a new controller, which you also suspected was faulty and which we sent. You fitted the new controller and then returned the old to us (thankyou). You reported the controller swap made no difference and the old controller, though with wires cut on return, tested good. You seemed happy that the problem was resolved.

You then reported your battery had broken and asked we send another, which the workshop team immediately agreed to do.

However, I decided to give you a call to find out a little more about the circumstances and decided after that call not to issue a brand new battery to you as I felt your description of how you use your bike and the road conditions you described contributed to the cause of the damage.

I did offer to repair the damage and you agreed to send the battery to us..

We made the repair and charged you £20 for the return postage.

Since then we have heard nothing more from you until discovering this thread this morning.

I am a little worried that leaving your battery uncharged for so long may be an issue. If you check ours (and others) battery care advice you should see that it is very important to regularly charge any lithium battery.

As others have said there will also be a temperature effect during the winter months compared to last July.

Winter tyres will also dramatically reduce range.

I am quite happy to take a look at the battery for you.
If you would kindly phone or email us we can arrange to receive the battery, test and measure it, and report back to you.

Kind regards

 

[JamesW]

Hi Bob,

You are correct in much that you say. I have been purposefully ignoring the other issues that I had at the start and I was waiting to see if you would find this.

The anger would stem from what I feel is the unjust voiding of the warranty which I feel leaves me with no support unless I source it myself or pay for it. Especially as I now NEED the bike. When I bought it, it was an insurance against my epilepsy curtailing my freedom, now it has been curtailed I need it to be reliable to feel independent again!

James

 

[JuicyBike]

Hi James
We always try and help out. Simply let me know if the battery is coming in and I will make sure to turn it around quickly at the workshop for you.

I can hear that you need to be back on the road quickly and will do what I can to make this happen for you.
Kind regards

 

[JamesW]

Hi James
We always try and help out. Simply let me know if the battery is coming in and I will make sure to turn it around quickly at the workshop for you.

I can hear that you need to be back on the road quickly and will do what I can to make this happen for you.
Kind regards

I've sent you a PM Bob - can't get hold of you on the phone!

 

[patpatbut]

Good to know Bob from Juicy is on this case now.

Just wondering if the frog battery design is not reliable any chance you can provide an re-enforce part for James to give him a bit more peace of mind?

Pat

 

[JamesW]

Pat - we (Bob and I) have a problem here...
(I haven't managed to speak to Bob yet, and I'm doing my best not to start slagging Juicy off - I hope people have been noticing)

Last time I spoke to Bob, I had to pay for a "repair" (courier costs) which I should not have had to if the battery was under warrantee. If the battery should be under warrantee I should not have to pay again, but then that would mean Bob admitting it and refunding me for last time - we will ignore compensation for loss of use issues for the moment) If the battery is NOT under warrantee - why not? I have only fixed what was failed to be fixed when it should have been. Obviously I have put the battery in a new case which theoretically invalidates the warrantee but as I could get the case at much less than Bob and the warrantee was "already void" where does that leave us? I've been working with Bob more than he knows! Yet another reason to chase the credit card company rather than Bob!

I am eager to speak to Bob. I am aware that as Bob said "they have not had this happen before" - when describing the case failure - this doesn't mean it wasn't waiting to happen at some point. Just because Toyota brakes on some cars hadn't failed before, didn't mean the first failure was not a design/manufacturing flaw! I would rather not slag off any of the ebike manufacturers when the business is still in it's infancy and needs to grow as I think it is good in general and me slagging it off will not help the image.

I went with a BEBA member specifically to avoid warrantee issues that I expected to have with a Chinese supplier - Ironic isn't it!

with a £600 budget and a 33" inside leg there is not that much out there still. (I had to replace the gear shifters on my bike as well and the £600 was a gift which is why I keep remembering that rather than the 495+shipping fee I paid).

Hence why I am pursuing the Credit card company now as I really don't know what Bob will suggest next and his office is closed Sunday and Monday!

James

 

[barrycoll]

Just to say that the Frog battery in the Juicy bike conversion that Bob kindly fitted to my wife's Gary Fisher MTB has been absolutely fine....
I did have to modify the rear Blackburn pannier rack to give the seat post supported battery more clearance (my wife is 5' 2"), but the bike has been used on some unmade tracks in Spain, that one could say were not ideal.....although perhaps London roads these days are even worse than unmade Spanish tracks!

 

[JamesW]

Thanks Barry,

I guess I could have understood Bob's stance in July If I'd been riding off road but I wasn't and what you have just said makes me even more convinced that the case just failed mechanically - probably due to a bad kit.

I'll wait to talk to Bob and in the mean time I will try to find an opportunity to try out trex's suggestion.

@trex (if you are still watching) - would just lifting the front forks off the floor and rung the bike on full throttle for a few hours until it dies do the same job or will this overload the battery/controller/motor?

James

 

[trex]

yes, it would do the same job and much kinder to the battery too.
No load, you may have to leave it running for 6-8 hours though even at full throttle. The motor will stop when the battery is totally flat. The controller's LVC should protect your battery against 100% discharge.

 

[JamesW]

yes, it would do the same job and much kinder to the battery too.
No load, you may have to leave it running for 6-8 hours though even at full throttle. The motor will stop when the battery is totally flat. The controller's LVC should protect your battery against 100% discharge.

Thanks trex I'll go and suspend it now! I'm lucky I'm working from home today!

 

[patpatbut]

Pat - we (Bob and I) have a problem here...
(I haven't managed to speak to Bob yet, and I'm doing my best not to start slagging Juicy off - I hope people have been noticing)

Last time I spoke to Bob, I had to pay for a "repair" (courier costs) which I should not have had to if the battery was under warrantee. If the battery should be under warrantee I should not have to pay again, but then that would mean Bob admitting it and refunding me for last time - we will ignore compensation for loss of use issues for the moment) If the battery is NOT under warrantee - why not? I have only fixed what was failed to be fixed when it should have been. Obviously I have put the battery in a new case which theoretically invalidates the warrantee but as I could get the case at much less than Bob and the warrantee was "already void" where does that leave us? I've been working with Bob more than he knows! Yet another reason to chase the credit card company rather than Bob!

I am eager to speak to Bob. I am aware that as Bob said "they have not had this happen before" - when describing the case failure - this doesn't mean it wasn't waiting to happen at some point. Just because Toyota brakes on some cars hadn't failed before, didn't mean the first failure was not a design/manufacturing flaw! I would rather not slag off any of the ebike manufacturers when the business is still in it's infancy and needs to grow as I think it is good in general and me slagging it off will not help the image.

I went with a BEBA member specifically to avoid warrantee issues that I expected to have with a Chinese supplier - Ironic isn't it!

with a £600 budget and a 33" inside leg there is not that much out there still. (I had to replace the gear shifters on my bike as well and the £600 was a gift which is why I keep remembering that rather than the 495+shipping fee I paid).

Hence why I am pursuing the Credit card company now as I really don't know what Bob will suggest next and his office is closed Sunday and Monday!

James

Hi James, I understand you must be really frustrated without the bike working. At least Bob is aware of the case and he is happy to sort something out.

The frog battery case has been infamous for long time here due to the joint failure especially running on bumpy road.

Please let us know what the outcome.

Pat

 

[JamesW]

Will do Pat,

You have suggested "frustrated" and Bob has suggested "angry". Neither it quite the correct emotion.
Resigned comes close. It's a bit like how you feel when it snows and you can't get home, or the onging things with the Banks. You know that the blame can be placed at many peoples doors, but that doesn't solve the issue, neither does getting angry or frustrated, you just have to live with what you have now and where you are now. There's now point going over how you got here, there's only any point working out what the way forward is from here. (And to me that doesn't mean spending £500-£700 per annum on ebike parts and servicing!)

James