Bosch bearings

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

The Chinese bikes are mainly modular.

surely all bikes are modular... they are all a selection of parts from various sources. It doesn't matter which part of the world those parts were assembled in.

What your looking for is a brand of bike, where the parts are available easily should you need them, and/or a brand of bike where the parts can be replaced or upgraded with others. That is one of the advantages that Bosch actually offers. Its a reliable unit itself, parts can be ordered from any Bosch dealer anywhere in Europe, and the rest of the bike is just a normal bike, so any bike shop even if they have no eBike experience can service and repair / replace parts if needed.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I understand (plenty of experience) about the warranty side and payment blah but I am aware a few questions have been asked over time on this forum attempting to get the answer to that simple question of whether dealers would arrange to get non warranty issues (Bosch) fixed but responses always got diverted (as it was a bit earlier) to benefits of buying from a dealer, should not have bought from abroad or not actually answered. now it is answered at last!

I can't say I really understand why your question hadn't been answered before. It doesn't seem that tricky, or even controversial, you're essentially just asking whether a shop should service / repair a bike if the work isn't covered by warranty aren't you? Which is simply a business transaction like taking your car to the garage, they can do the work, or they can say they aren't comfortable with it and send you somewhere else. There is no requirement on a shop to do work on any bike.

A lot of the comments about buying abroad or buying second hand etc etc, are only relevant to the warranty work.

Of course the two are linked... if you've bought a bike on-line, or from overseas its highly possible your local shop might be slightly miffed by that and not want to work on your bike. However in most cases, shop owners won't care where bike is bought, they'll take your money to service / repair a bike no matter on its origin.

 

[JohnCade]

Cars aren't the best comparison.


its very much different in different sectors and with different brands. Your example is of course correct with cars. But equally you wouldn't expect to buy a Playstation from Curry's on-line you wouldn't expect your local games store to sort it out if it broke for free. Its the same with most brands in the bike industry. The warranty system is set up to support the dealers who sell the products.


Col.

In the case of the Playstation it would just go into the repair network and be done under warranty if still covered. The online store, or if bought abroad the shop, would not be involved, and would only be involved if it was bought on the UK high street and if you wanted to involve them. I know because I've dealt with Sony and Samsung and others when I've bought their products online and abroad; and from shops here who don't want to know if things go wrong.

Most consumer durables manufacturers have got their act together and realise that they they can't make their customers jump through hoops, or let them down like a cheap double glazing company. They trade on their reputations.

It does make you wonder just how much support you can expect with products like e bikes. They are not just cheap throwaway items after all and dealers and not customers seem to be king in this sector. It seems to me that the manufactures see the dealers as their customers and the real customer takes his chances.

BTW it would be completely unreasonable to expect a dealer to repair a bike under warranty which had been bought elsewhere or in another country under the existing arrangements. It's the existing arrangements which are not fit for purpose, and in the case of someone buying in one EU country and then moving to another and finding local warranty support unobtainable, practically amount to a restraint of trade.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

surely all bikes are modular... they are all a selection of parts from various sources. It doesn't matter which part of the world those parts were assembled in.

What your looking for is a brand of bike, where the parts are available easily should you need them, and/or a brand of bike where the parts can be replaced or upgraded with others. That is one of the advantages that Bosch actually offers. Its a reliable unit itself, parts can be ordered from any Bosch dealer anywhere in Europe, and the rest of the bike is just a normal bike, so any bike shop even if they have no eBike experience can service and repair / replace parts if needed.

That's true, but some are more modular than others. On a typical Chinese bike,you can swap motors and controllers for different types and brands. The same with displays, throttles and sensors. Also, you can swap batteries for different types, sizes and brands. The bits are available from a large number of sources, and can typically be unplugged and swapped.The Bosch system has the sensors and controller integrated in the motor and there's no alternatives. There's also no alternatives to the battery and display, and even if yo can get replacements, you still need a dealer to set them up. I guess that the Panasonic and Yamaha systems are similar.

I'm thinking more about the guy with a broken bike that doesn't reside next door to a dealer he bought the bike from. Any person competent in basic electrics can fix a Chinese bike, but for a European one, you need special training, equipment and software, so if you live in the back of beyond, you're forked.

Think about the guy that wanted a new display for his Bosch bike. Even if he or his local bike shop could get one, it still wouldn't work without the special programming by a Bosch dealer, which they couldn't do without the bike (supposedly), so he had to send his bike a long way to get it fixed.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

all true, cant argue with any of it.

although I would suggest that most eBike customers, don't have enough electric skills or the time to learn or use them to do the things you've suggested, no matter where their bike is purchased from. A high % on here will do, but most customer don't. A high % can't even fix an innertube, which is why they buy from a bike shop, to get the support they need.

 

[SRS]

If I buy a Bosch drill and it breaks under warranty, I take it to a Bosch service centre. The nearest.

When I purchased my cycle, I was told I have a 2 year warranty on Bosch parts. I assumed my warrantly would be valid anywhere in the country.

Are you saying that this is not the case? After all, dealers come and go all the time.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

We can't speak for Bosch, so I'll check what their policy is and come back to you.

 

[Electrifying Cycles]

From our perspective we do not generally do warranty work for other dealers. We have done warranty work for others in the past but have found it to be not worth the hassle.

If the dealer is still around they should carry out the work. If the dealer no longer exists I would expect the bike manufacturer e.g. Wisper, KTM etc to find a solution.

If an item was out of warranty and the customer wanted parts and repair work we would do this as long as we stock the brand.

 

[JohnCade]

If I buy a Bosch drill and it breaks under warranty, I take it to a Bosch service centre. The nearest.

When I purchased my cycle, I was told I have a 2 year warranty on Bosch parts. I assumed my warrantly would be valid anywhere in the country.

Are you saying that this is not the case? After all, dealers come and go all the time.

Precisely. Just as in the case of a TV or a car or motorcycle the manufacture takes ultimate responsibility for warranty issues. It's not just down to the dealer who sold it. For instance KTM motorcycles are covered by a European warranty, and problems can be dealt with by any authorised KTM dealer. You would not be expected to ship it back to the country where you bought it if you were on holiday or had moved to another country.

The closest to the niche market of e bikes in the UK is perhaps the quality hi-fi industry. Many small companies like Rega, or bigger but still small by international standards like Naim Audio are still active in the market. These companies sell through dealer networks which make their living from the high markups on the products. But they are expected to earn those markups by providing a good customer support service prior to sale in demos, and post sale in customer support and dealing with problems. But if the customer has a warranty issue with a product he is not expected to deal with the dealer he bought it from if he doesn't live near him anymore, or even if he just doesn't like him. He can take it to any authorised dealer anywhere in the world who will repair it under warranty, or send it back to the factory or an in country repair facility if he can't.

Warranties differ depending on the territory, but the principal of the manufacturer taking responsibility for their products and not passing it off to a local dealer who may or may not give a toss remains. With e bikes it seems a dealer can just move on to another brand and the customer can be left in the lurch and in the hands of a manufacturer in another country who won't deal with end users direct, and just leaves it to the goodwill of other dealers in the country to sort out the mess.

 

[trex]

you buy a second hand 2 year old Kalkhoff and have a problem. So you ring 50Cycles, who are the official importers.
You can expect that 50Cycles have the expertise and spares, and are capable of arranging any repair.
My question to Col: why can't you expect the same level of service with other brands such as KTM?

 

[tillson]

If I buy a Bosch drill and it breaks under warranty, I take it to a Bosch service centre. The nearest.

When I purchased my cycle, I was told I have a 2 year warranty on Bosch parts. I assumed my warrantly would be valid anywhere in the country.

Are you saying that this is not the case? After all, dealers come and go all the time.

I absolutely agree. We are constantly being told that electric bikes costing several thousands of pounds are so priced because of the excellent backup and warranty service which accompanies them. If the whole process relies on a single shop remaining in business through tough economic times and also that single shop being a convenient distance from the purchaser's home, then it certainly is not excellent backup and warranty service. So why the big price tag we must wonder?

If my Stihl hedge cutters break, I take them to any authorised Stihl dealer for repair, if the VW breaks down under warranty it goes to any VW dealer, if my Aldi chain saw breaks under warranty it goes to a central service depot, and so on. If I bought an electric bike for £300, off eBay, from a Spiv, and it broke, and the Spiv had gone bust, or had ceased trading, I might not have high expectations of receiving a free repair under warranty. From what I'm reading here, the big price ticket bikes could deliver the same, "Spiv Service" if the shop goes bust.

On high end bikes costing thousands, the buyer needs to rely on the big brand name, Bosch etc, not a shop, in a street.

 

[Wander]

I think that the difference in the various analogies being put forward here is that generally with HiFi's TVs etc. the manufactures often set up UK service centres to take care of warranty issues. This is not the case with bikes & e-bikes in the UK.

Ultimately in UK law it isn't the manufacturer who is legally responsible for warranty issues, it is the dealer. There may be a moral responsibility on the manufacturer but not a legal one.

I can also certainly understand dealers like Electrifying Cycles above not doing warranty work on other dealer's sales. Why should they take on the hassle of dealing with something when the customer has bought off the internet / from a warehouse / overseas etc. normally at a lower price? The main profit is made in the sale & not the warranty work. Dealers like them will invest in the mechanics, training & facilities & that is why I support dealers like them when buying any product rather than go for the cheap (at first!) option.

 

[electric.mike]

Two cases are now being mentioned dealer going bust or changing brand,the changing brand does not relieve the dealer of his obligations he entered a contract at the time of sale and that still stands,if he goes bust thats different.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

you buy a second hand 2 year old Kalkhoff and have a problem. So you ring 50Cycles, who are the official importers.
You can expect that 50Cycles have the expertise and spares, and are capable of arranging any repair.
My question to Col: why can't you expect the same level of service with other brands such as KTM?

If you buy a second hand 2 year old KTM and have a problem, you can by all means ring us and we'd put you in touch with a KTM dealer local to you who has the expertise and spares, and are capable or arranging any repair.

There is no difference between the examples. Expect the fact that at the moment there are 90 KTM dealers around the UK, and I think 50 Cycles only have 5 stores. So chances are youd actually you'd be able to get your KTM looked at more locally.

 

[electric.mike]

I use Nikon cameras if they go wrong within the warranty period i take them back to the dealer i bought them from,if he went bust i wouldn't expect another dealer to take over the obligation i would send it back to nikon uk myself.

 

[JohnCade]

I think that the difference in the various analogies being put forward here is that generally with HiFi's TVs etc. the manufactures often set up UK service centres to take care of warranty issues. This is not the case with bikes & e-bikes in the UK.

Ultimately in UK law it isn't the manufacturer who is legally responsible for warranty issues, it is the dealer. There may be a moral responsibility on the manufacturer but not a legal one.

I can also certainly understand dealers like Electrifying Cycles above not doing warranty work on other dealer's sales. Why should they take on the hassle of dealing with something when the customer has bought off the internet / from a warehouse / overseas etc. normally at a lower price? The main profit is made in the sale & not the warranty work. Dealers like them will invest in the mechanics, training & facilities & that is why I support dealers like them when buying any product rather than go for the cheap (at first!) option.

Well that's my point. Why don't they have properly set up service centres? At the very least reciprocal arrangements so dealers can cover each other and be reimbursed ultimately by the manufacturer.

In practise the place you buy a product from is not solely responsible for dealing with problems with that product; and it's not a case of moral responsibility. It's more PR and that if they want to be taken seriously, and for this market to be taken seriously, the makers of e bikes have to put in place better support than exists now. Why should a Bosch drill be treated differently from a Bosch motor in a bike? Why should a buyer of a KTM e bike be treated in a different way to one who bought a KTM motorcycle? The KTM motor bikes are not that much more expensive that the top or the range e bikes BTW.

 

[JohnCade]

I use Nikon cameras if they go wrong within the warranty period i take them back to the dealer i bought them from,if he went bust i wouldn't expect another dealer to take over the obligation i would send it back to nikon uk myself.

Except if a e bike dealer went bust a foreign manufacturer would almost certainly not deal with you direct, and a camera is a bit easier to send somewhere that an e bike. You should be able to take a camera to any dealer who would get it sorted under proper reciprocal agreements anyway. You might have moved a long way away from the place you bought it.

That's how grown up market segments work.

 

[nashdm2]

Very interesting thread. The question I would like answered is as follows: If your bike develops an issue, you take it back to your dealer. If the repair is a warranty item, the dealer will get the part from the manufacturer I suppose?. BUT, does the dealer then get paid for his time to do the repair from the manufacturer (like in the car industry) or, does the dealer have to "absorb" the cost of his time himself? Col, I guess you know the answer to this?

 

[Wander]

In practise the place you buy a product from is not solely responsible for dealing with problems with that product; and it's not a case of moral responsibility.

But that's not the way the Sale of Goods Act works, much of which is written from the point of view of protecting the consumer from the dealer trying to pass the buck to the manufacturer.

 

[JohnCade]

Very interesting thread. The question I would like answered is as follows: If your bike develops an issue, you take it back to your dealer. If the repair is a warranty item, the dealer will get the part from the manufacturer I suppose?. BUT, does the dealer then get paid for his time to do the repair from the manufacturer (like in the car industry) or, does the dealer have to "absorb" the cost of his time himself? Col, I guess you know the answer to this?

I think the answer has been given and is the core of the problem. The dealer takes on responsibility for warranty issues. There is no arrangement in place as there is in most mature market segments where dealers are reimbursed centrally for the work they do.