Boundaries beginning to blur ...

JohnInStockie

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 10, 2006
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Heres a new bike that adds to the blurring between very small motorbikes and mountain bikes, albeit that this one doesnt have any pedals. With the emergence of more and more of these, maybe we will one day soon be looking at a completely new class of small electric vehicles on our roads.



Link to article

John
 

Mussels

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Jun 17, 2008
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Crowborough
Not a good blurring from what I can see. It's not a very small motorbike and the MTB front end is probably not strong enough, I think it needs motorbike brakes and forks to cope with the bigger forces that are likely.
 

lemmy

Esteemed Pedelecer
I can't see that it blurs any boundaries. It's not a mountain bike because it doesn't have pedals.

it's an electric motor cycle and no different in principle from the many electric motor scooters available. It has the same limited range and high weight, too.

Looks fun, though.
 

keithhazel

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Oct 1, 2007
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:eek: and on a wet day all that mud and mucky water straight up your back...:eek: MUDGUARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! might not be trendy but i want to get there with my clothes not ruined..:(
 

JohnInStockie

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Nov 10, 2006
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:D Good feedback guys

We do seem to be getting more and more human-assisted electric mountain bikes and while I take the point that its nothing new in principal, these types of bikes generally seem to be much lighter than their petrol equivalents, and designed for off-road too which the vast majority of petrol 'scooters' are not.

Not sure they make any financial sense though, as they all seem to be quite costly (A2B, Zero, Optibike, e.t.c.) but as Lemmy said, look fun.

John
 
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Mussels

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Jun 17, 2008
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:D Good feedback guys

We do seem to be getting more and more human-assisted electric mountain bikes and while I take the point that its nothing new in principal, these types of bikes generally seem to be much lighter than their petrol equivalents, and designed for off-road too which the vast majority of petrol 'scooters' are not.

Not sure they make any financial sense though, as they all seem to be quite costly (A2B, Zero, Optibike, e.t.c.) but as Lemmy said, look fun.

John
There's a large selection of petrol off road motorbikes available, very light machines with small engines and probably more capable than an electric version. If electric motorbikes were that good I'd expect to see direct comparisons on their websites.
 

JohnInStockie

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Nov 10, 2006
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There's a large selection of petrol off road motorbikes available, very light machines with small engines and probably more capable than an electric version. If electric motorbikes were that good I'd expect to see direct comparisons on their websites.
Really, Im not an ex-biker so I probably am not as familiar as you. Are they as light as 53Kg?
 

Mussels

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Jun 17, 2008
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Really, Im not an ex-biker so I probably am not as familiar as you. Are they as light as 53Kg?
It's hard to place that bike as it's very small, I didn't notice originally but it's only slightly bigger than a childs mini moto. A midi moto has a seat height of 31" which looks the same as this bike, it's powered by a 50cc engine which is probably similar and weighs less than 50kg.
However these are toys and I've never seen one in the flesh as nobody wants a motorbike that size*. Apart from range the only real difference I can think of between these toys and the Comoto is the price, the petrol versions go as cheap as £150.
The press release compares the bike to the Zero-S, that's a road bike so a poor comparison. The Zero-MX is the better equivalent, it looks like a much better ride and not much heavier at 70kgs including the battery.

* Smaller motorbikes or mini motos are very popular with children and adults, adults ride them like circus clowns.

Edit: I looked at the price of the Zero-MX, it starts at just over $8000!
 

Patrick

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 9, 2009
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Really, Im not an ex-biker so I probably am not as familiar as you. Are they as light as 53Kg?
I had a quick google and found one weighing in at 57kg

FX Mountain Moto - 125lb 125cc - World's Lightest Off-Road On-Road Motorcycle - Superlight Supermoto Dirt Bikes

It claims to be the lightest dirt bike available and like the Comoto it's part mountain bike.

On reflection I'd say that these bike do blur the bondary between mountain bikes and motor bikes when you look at the the type of off road riding that their aimed at.
 

lemmy

Esteemed Pedelecer
On reflection I'd say that these bike do blur the bondary between mountain bikes and motor bikes when you look at the the type of off road riding that their aimed at.
That seems a bit woolly to me. There is no blurrable boundary between a mountain bike and a motor bike as they are conventionally understood. One has pedals, one does not.

A motor bike which goes the places (or tries to) that a mountain bike can go is either a trail or, possibly, a trials bike. The fact that the engine is electric rather than interal combustion doesn't alter that.
 

Patrick

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 9, 2009
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That seems a bit woolly to me. There is no blurrable boundary between a mountain bike and a motor bike as they are conventionally understood. One has pedals, one does not.

A motor bike which goes the places (or tries to) that a mountain bike can go is either a trail or, possibly, a trials bike. The fact that the engine is electric rather than interal combustion doesn't alter that.
It was a bit wooly as stated. What I was trying to get at is that in practice (though not by definition) it not just the pedals that distinguish mountain bikes from motor bikes, mountain bikes are also considerably lighter. This means that shifting the rider's weight will have a greater effect, and if the terrain is too much for the wheels then the bike can easily be lifted off the ground.

So although the Comoto and the FX Mountain Moto don't blur the logical boundaries in that they are out-and-out motor bikes, they do blur the practical boundaries in that their light weight allows them to be ridden (and lifted) in ways that would normally be associated with mountain bikes.

This practical bluring would be insigficant when it comes to riding on the road, but in the context of offroad riding it is significant enough to support the manufacturers claim of bluring the boundaries.
 

lemmy

Esteemed Pedelecer
it is significant enough to support the manufacturers claim of bluring the boundaries.
I understand better what you (they) mean now!

In practise, given its power, it is legally motor cycle and won't blur any boundaries in Europe at least.

Having done a bit of trail riding on a Yamaha DT175 years ago, It would be nice to have done it on a machine less noisy - that would give this immediate advantage in my book.
 

JohnInStockie

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Nov 10, 2006
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Having done a bit of trail riding on a Yamaha DT175 years ago, It would be nice to have done it on a machine less noisy - that would give this immediate advantage in my book.
Sounds good - what would you say would be the differences then between your 175, and these type of bikes, light enough to lift, almost silent, (optional pedals)?

I can see a purpose, following national cycle routes would be a start. I know your not supposed to but frankly the surfaces are so poor as to be almost unuseable (which really gets my goat, a 'heralded - LOOK WHAT THE CYCLISTS HAVE' cycle route thats dreadful)

I'd use it on there I think, silence would make a difference Im sure.
 

Mussels

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Jun 17, 2008
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Sounds good - what would you say would be the differences then between your 175, and these type of bikes, light enough to lift, almost silent, (optional pedals)?

I can see a purpose, following national cycle routes would be a start. I know your not supposed to but frankly the surfaces are so poor as to be almost unuseable (which really gets my goat, a 'heralded - LOOK WHAT THE CYCLISTS HAVE' cycle route thats dreadful)

I'd use it on there I think, silence would make a difference Im sure.
I can't see many people lifting 57kg over a fence, a cheap mountain bike at 15kg is much more likely.
Also small dirt bikes can cause a lot of damage to NCRs, I've seen this happen locally after the usual field they use was blocked off.
 

JohnInStockie

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Nov 10, 2006
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Also small dirt bikes can cause a lot of damage to NCRs, I've seen this happen locally after the usual field they use was blocked off.
I'd be amazed if anyone could tell :rolleyes:
 

Mussels

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Jun 17, 2008
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I'd be amazed if anyone could tell :rolleyes:
I use route 1 sometimes through London and one section is along the top of a dyke around some reclaimed land. It was a fairly good fine gravel path until motorbikes started using it but they churned it up and now the surface is loose rocks that were the path foundations, they have made it almost unridable.
 

JohnInStockie

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Nov 10, 2006
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I use route 1 sometimes through London and one section is along the top of a dyke around some reclaimed land. It was a fairly good fine gravel path until motorbikes started using it but they churned it up and now the surface is loose rocks that were the path foundations, they have made it almost unridable.
Well that is a shame and would be very disappointing to see.

That is not the experience where I live, the main route is the Trans Pennine Trail. Most of it near me is extremely poor. Its used by horses, and probably mini moto's too, but I doubt it was the mini moto riders that buried half bricks and broken concrete hard core into the sand/gravel surface, or allow hedges and trees to grow uncontrolled until you cant see the path, or that designed tunnels without lights yet littered the floor are with bricks, glass and gravel. Unless your doing about 8mph its extremely uncomfortable to traverse and even a bit dangerous in places, turns your bike into a bone shaker and you get to your destination covered in grit!

The next route to me is the Middlewood way which goes from Marple to Macclesfield. Some of this has been tarmacced, some of it hasnt, and a very large portion of it is extremely loose large stone gravel basically just dumped on top by the ton. Again for all but mountain bikes in-traversable.

For me, these routes are nice for a sunny Sunday afternoon with the kids, but they are not really a national cycle network. A true NCN would have a good surface, be maintained and have things like drainage, you simply dont see that.

If we really had a good quality National cycle network, then I would agree, but what we have is laughable.
 

Mussels

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Jun 17, 2008
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For me, these routes are nice for a sunny Sunday afternoon with the kids, but they are not really a national cycle network. A true NCN would have a good surface, be maintained and have things like drainage, you simply dont see that.

If we really had a good quality National cycle network, then I would agree, but what we have is laughable.
That's all I ever see NCN routes as, the one I use goes the long way round and is slow and full of obstacles (ineffective motorbike barriers mainly). No good whatsoever for regular use, Sustrans openly say they need maintenance and are looking for volunteers but that won't help the poor designs.
 

Haku

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Jun 20, 2007
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Gloucestershire
On the subject of pedal-less electric power, just read some British inventor has recently bought Segway - now does anyone suppose he's going to lobby for Segway type vehicles to become legal to use on pavements and/or roads in the UK? I would hope so! I saw a little pedal-less bike at Urban Mover's main unit and it looked a lot of fun but illegal to use on the roads, I'm sure there'd be a ton of these kind of bikes appearing if the law changed.