Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Oh dear - not yet another 'Angry voice from Yorkshire'.
And another idiot voice from Dundee, what's your answer Mr Smug?
You haven't got one have you, to resort to this infantile response.

Completely out of touch with reality that you think won't affect you, only others less fortunate, and you really don't care about them do you?

What a selfish attitude, damage the environment for instance and we will all suffer.
Why did you bother to respond when you had nothing cogent to offer?
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
I wasn't was I ? so that rather blows your statement out of the water.
I predicted before the Referendum that there were enough gullible people who had been conned into blaming the EU for the wrong doings of the Government to gain a leave vote.
And I was proved right.

They were the ones that achieved Brexit. not people like you who come along with half baked notions of a resurgence of the British World Trading empire but have no plan, support a pack of amateur comedians who don't know how to negotiate, and despite the obvious disaster in progress still stick to an idea that any sensible nation would have trashed long ago.

Why are you supporting this crazy slide into chaos?
When the Main body that supported Brexit feels the crunch, which they will if the Government tries some of the downright crazy economics of Minford and co there will be big trouble.
And even if they don't do that it will still fail as we no longer own the country we were born in, do we? and the present owners may well leave us in the lurch.
A stupid pointless set of risks we should not be taking.
Difficult to name every single person on here or for that matter everywhere else when responding to a previous post. OK, clever fellow aren't you, to have predicted doom and gloom and denigrated your fellow man as being an imbecile simply because he doesn't see things your way. Let's just say that in future unless I name you in a post, you're not included in my comments. Your views and and your thoughts are irrelevant to me. I've heard them so many times, that I don't need to hear them again. I understand your point of view, I don't agree with it, I don't want to talk about it and I certainly don't want to argue with you about it. That clear enough?
 
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oldgroaner

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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Do you think that any other country in the world, apart from Norway, actually pay a premium to trade with the EU? I can accept that the EU wants to dissuade other members from leaving the party but this is not the way to do that.

Non-EU countries do, of course, have to pay the external tariff to the EU. But Britain has to pay £8-£9 billion into the EU budget, the equivalent of a tariff of about 7 per cent on our goods. Our free access is not free access at all. Arguing for the single market on the grounds that you can avoid a 3 per cent tariff by actually paying 7 per cent fee is mis-selling on a scale that dwarfs the PPI scandal.
All missing the point made though, the EU cannot offer something more favourable than our present deal, since others would immediately say "Me too".

This is the trap they are in, hence the apparent intransigence.
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Difficult to name every single person on here or for that matter everywhere else when responding to a previous post. OK, clever fellow aren't you, to have predicted doom and gloom and denigrated your fellow man as being an imbecile simply because he doesn't see things your way. Let's just say that in future unless I name you in a post, you're not included in my comments. Your views and and your thoughts are irrelevant to me. I've heard them so many times, that I don't need to hear them again. I understand your point of view, I don't agree with it, I don't want to talk about it and I certainly don't want to argue with you about it. That clear enough?
You are in no position to impose your own rules on here sunshine, You are just another poster and not a very bright one at that, anything you put one here I will react to as I see fit, if you don't like it, feel free to leave and take your self importance and arrogance with you.
You don't exactly have anything to offer of value anyway.

My comments on the motivation of the leave Voters were made before the referendum and simply recorded the obvious reasoning process that guideed their vote, to your gullible mind that seems denigrating, it was a simple assesment of the facts that research by polling afterwards has confirmed.
 
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Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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I beg to differ about the importance of money in this discussion. It is a transient effect, the steady state is the relationship..
Danidl......You are being a bit holier than thou in your postings,lets have a look at recent events in the Irish economy...
Ireland is the sixth most favourable tax haven in the world...11% of its revenue,$46.6 billion in 2016, comes from sheltering the wealth of the likes of Google,who only pay 3.7% tax on the revenue they declare in Ireland....the EU is currently fining Ireland 15.5 billion Euros for undercharging tax.
Ireland has a corporation tax rate of only 12%,6.25% on ties to intellectual property or patents (read Google licensing agreements on its logo).
Ireland has no financial transparency,no requirement to publish accounts of turnover,subsidies received,profit or tax paid.
Ireland has established 'special vehicle status',so as to hide the assets of multi-nationals,estimate Ireland is hiding 420 billion euros in non declared assets.
This makes the UK a junior in the world tax haven status.
To take your analogy of parking the caravan,your government seems quite happy to have some very big and expensive caravans parked on your soil.
From memory weren't Ireland bribed by the EU to vote positive in some referendum.
But as you say,it isnt about the money.hehe !!!
KudosDave
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
Difficult to name every single person on here or for that matter everywhere else when responding to a previous post. OK, clever fellow aren't you, to have predicted doom and gloom and denigrated your fellow man as being an imbecile simply because he doesn't see things your way. Let's just say that in future unless I name you in a post, you're not included in my comments. Your views and and your thoughts are irrelevant to me. I've heard them so many times, that I don't need to hear them again. I understand your point of view, I don't agree with it, I don't want to talk about it and I certainly don't want to argue with you about it. That clear enough?
Blimey! Have you found some way to eavesdrop on me and pre-empt my script? That is almost word for word what I was about to type about you!

Tom
 
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PeterL

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Aug 19, 2017
998
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Dundee
You are in no position to impose your own rules on here sunshine, You are just another poster and not a very bright one at that, anything you put one here I will react to as I see fit, if you don't like it, feel free to leave and take your self importance and arrogance with you.
You don't exactly have anything to offer of value anyway.
What an amazing response, but not a surprise to me. You are unpleasant in the extreme. As to whether I stay or go that obviously depends on the level of conversation and the value, or otherwise I get from being on here. That's both Tom and yourself that have today, suggested I leave - let me keep you in suspense. I might, I might not, there are still a few voices on here that I enjoy talking to and learning from.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,128
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To bring money back into the argument I wasn't saying that the 9% was the direct cost of doing trade, it's 'just' the cost of being a member and able to freely trade across borders? But at the expense of not being able to freely trade with the rest of the World.
Why this myth again? Of course we are free to trade with the rest of the world as an EU member, Germany does it very successfully, how do you think Mercs, BMWs, Bosch products and Siemens trains get everywhere?

We are just not very good at it, making our prospects out of the EU rather dismal.
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,213
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Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
All missing the point made though, the EU cannot offer something more favourable than our present deal, since others would immediately say "Me too".

This is the trap they are in, hence the apparent intransigence.
.
there seems to be a general objection from brexiters with paying to sell to the EU27.
Let's take my business. Like KudosDave, I sell e-bike kits to EU customers. The reason is simple: it is not realistic to send my kits to the other side of the world and expect to be competitive. The EU is a commerce platform, you pay ebay, amazon, google, alibaba etc for the same reason.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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What an amazing response, but not a surprise to me. You are unpleasant in the extreme. As to whether I stay or go that obviously depends on the level of conversation and the value, or otherwise I get from being on here. That's both Tom and yourself that have today, suggested I leave - let me keep you in suspense. I might, I might not, there are still a few voices on here that I enjoy talking to and learning from.
If you can cut back on the smart *ss smug comments and actually post answers on topic rather than snide remarks that would be a help.
 
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Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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Danidl...
British banks will lose "passporting rights" to do business in the European Union after Brexit, the EU's chief Brexit negotiator has said.

Speaking in Brussels on Monday Michel Barnier said that "Brexit means Brexit, everywhere" and that there could be no opt-ins to parts of the single market for certain industries.

“On financial services, UK voices suggest that Brexit does not mean Brexit. Brexit means Brexit, everywhere,” Mr Barnier said in a major speech to a think-tank.


David Davis 'must be joking if he wants EU to compromise on Brexit'
“The legal consequence of Brexit is that the UK financial service providers lose their EU passport. This passport allows them to offer their services to a market of 500 million consumers and 22 million businesses."

The pronouncement is bad news for the City, where over 5,400 British firms rely on passporting rights to bring in £9 billion in revenue every year to Britain. The BBA has said the loss of passporting would be “disruptive, costly and time-consuming”.

It also comes the same day as the EU announces where it will relocating the European Banking Authority, an EU agency currently based in London, after Brexit.

Danidl.....BULLYING BY THE EU...
Tusk and Barnier have got this all wrong if they think such threats will sway the UK electorate....if anything it will strengthen our resolve to rid ourselves of this bullying EU....Brits dont like being threatened.
I have friends in the City,moving these contracts away from London is not easy,London is very good at these tasks,Paris is too expensive and tax ridden,Frankfurt is boring.
KudosDave
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
The best thing you seem to be able to do is disguise a patient as an animal and then you can get same day service from a Vet
I am, truly, sorry to hear that.

Ironic that you should say this, but, the big difference here is that our pets don't get treated on the National Health we have to pay for them ourselves, when we need them. Like you say seems to work well.

Assume you wouldn't have too much difficulty in disguising yourself as such?
 
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Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
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Ireland
Danidl...
British banks will lose "passporting rights" to do business in the European Union after Brexit, the EU's chief Brexit negotiator has said.

Speaking in Brussels on Monday Michel Barnier said that "Brexit means Brexit, everywhere" and that there could be no opt-ins to parts of the single market for certain industries.

“On financial services, UK voices suggest that Brexit does not mean Brexit. Brexit means Brexit, everywhere,” Mr Barnier said in a major speech to a think-tank.


David Davis 'must be joking if he wants EU to compromise on Brexit'
“The legal consequence of Brexit is that the UK financial service providers lose their EU passport. This passport allows them to offer their services to a market of 500 million consumers and 22 million businesses."

The pronouncement is bad news for the City, where over 5,400 British firms rely on passporting rights to bring in £9 billion in revenue every year to Britain. The BBA has said the loss of passporting would be “disruptive, costly and time-consuming”.

It also comes the same day as the EU announces where it will relocating the European Banking Authority, an EU agency currently based in London, after Brexit.

Danidl.....BULLYING BY THE EU...
Tusk and Barnier have got this all wrong if they think such threats will sway the UK electorate....if anything it will strengthen our resolve to rid ourselves of this bullying EU....Brits dont like being threatened.
I have friends in the City,moving these contracts away from London is not easy,London is very good at these tasks,Paris is too expensive and tax ridden,Frankfurt is boring.
KudosDave
Why are you even assuming that the EU negotiators are bullying or even appealing to the UK electorate? They did not do so before the referendum.. a conscious decision based on recognising the UKs right to self determination, so why would they do so now.? It is for British politicians to engage with the British public.

What Mr Barnier is continuing to make clear that decisions have consequences. If the UK wants out of the single market then they don't get its benefits. Are not these passporting rights not underwritten by the ECJ, so if one is out of one ...

In reference to the tax concessions to multinationals, I do not condone this. I am particularly confused by the judgement in respect of Apple. As I understand it, the EU have determined that a tax bill of 15 billion is owed, . Apple have naturally appealed this and it is currently sub judice . The 15 billion is locked in an escrow account until the court case resolves.
. Why our state has joined itself with apple in the appeal defeats my logic. We have plenty of needs where 15 billion would make in roads.
I would be expecting that the current situation is legal, whether it is moral is another thing.

I am not aware of any bribe to Ireland in the terms you are suggesting. I am aware that there was potential structural funds of 8 billion, at the time of the Maastricht treaty. The EU had and has a number of schemes for improving infrastructure, Ireland was a beneficiary in earlier years , now we are a contributor. If the Irish civil service were more successful than say the Welsh local authorities, maybe it's because we did our homework. So unless you have additional information..
 
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PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
Why this myth again? Of course we are free to trade with the rest of the world as an EU member, Germany does it very successfully, how do you think Mercs, BMWs, Bosch products and Siemens trains get everywhere?

We are just not very good at it, making our prospects out of the EU rather dismal.
.
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Try this from Peter Lilley MP

Trade and the Single Market are key referendum issues yet I am the only MP with first-hand experience of either. Sadly, when politicians debate issues of which they have no experience they seize on any plausible argument which supports their case, even arguments that are the reverse of the truth.

Let me bring some facts to bear on claims made by those who want us to remain in the EU.

How important are trade deals? It pains me to admit – their importance is grossly exaggerated. Countries succeed, with or without trade deals, if they produce goods and services other countries want.

Tariffs between developed countries now average low single figures – small beer compared with recent movements in exchange rates. The most worthwhile trade agreements are with fast-growing developing countries which still have high tariffs.

Is our net £10 billion contribution to the EU a price worth paying for tariff-free access to the EU market? If we left the EU with no trade deal – inconceivable given the tariff-free zone from Iceland to Turkey – our exports would face EU tariffs averaging just 2.4 per cent.

But our net contribution to the EU budget is equivalent to a 7 per cent tariff. Paying 7 cent to avoid 2.4 per cent costs is miss-selling that dwarfs the PPI scandal!

Does EU membership help us negotiate free trade deals with the rest of the world? Tariff-free access to the fast growing, protected markets of Asia, Africa and Latin America would be worthwhile. Unfortunately, EU membership prevents us negotiating free trade deals – and the EU has negotiated few deals for us: none with China, India, Australia, Brazil.

Does the EU’s size mean it gets better deals than we could alone? This is the reverse of the truth. The more countries involved in a trade deal the harder, slower and worse the result.

All 28 EU members have a veto on their negotiations which is why EU deals take so long and exclude so much. Bilateral deals are simpler, quicker and more comprehensive.

Hence Chile has deals covering countries with collective GDP five times the EU’s deals. Even Iceland – population less than Croydon – has a trade agreement with China – as does Switzerland. w26

Would Britain have to renegotiate from scratch the EU’s existing trade deals? Under the “principle of continuity” in international law we can adapt existing EU treaties to the UK. We should start that process before leaving the EU.

Would negotiating continued free trade with the EU take many years? Trade deals to remove tariffs involve complex trade-offs between differing tariffs on thousands of products and facing up to the vested interests they protect.

Negotiating continuing tariff-free trade between the UK and EU simply means keeping zero tariffs.

Do only European Economic Area members have access to the Single Market? The Single Market is talked about as if it were some inner sanctum accessible to a privileged few.

In fact, every country has access to the Single Market – with or without tariffs.

The Single Market, involved harmonising product rules – sensible, since businesses can now make one product range for the European market, not 28. But that benefits American and Japanese exporters as much as German or British firms.

People assume Britain benefits from participating in setting these rules. But rules provide a framework within which all companies operate – not an advantage to any individual country.

Britain set the rules of tennis but rarely wins Wimbledon. British exports to the EU have grown less rapidly since the Single Market than they did before, less than our partners’ and much less than non-EU countries’ exports!

Maybe that is partly because we suffer EU regulations on 100 per cent of our companies whereas non-EU firms need only comply with EU regulations on activities carried out within the EU.

Our shops are full of goods from countries with which we have no trade deal. They are not essential now tariffs between developed countries are so low.

But outside the EU we will be able to negotiate speedily the really worthwhile deals to access fast growing protected markets such as China, India and Brazil which the EU has ignored.

And we can retain free trade with the EU without paying our current entry fee which costs more than the tariffs we avoid.

Peter Lilley MP was Secretary of State for Trade and Industry 1990-92
 
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