Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
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Not possible since many member countries would want this, a one off low payment and then out with no future costs but keeping the benefit of free trade.
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Really! It's all about money with you, isn't it? No Labour government has ever messed up the public finances like your tory scum has every time they have been elected.
Read history, rather than just listen to and read the propaganda the establishment that you seem to worship put out endlessly as part of their conditioning programme that suckered you in so easily.
Brainwashing works and you're the proof.
Tom
That is an example of 'The Curate's Egg' tale to put it politely....in the manner of the curate!
Tom
Of course it wasn't a lie... Which by definition is an untruth intended to deceive. No one in the audience was deceived, . They I understand, took it as a joke.
the EU will give us a free trade deal alright, but it may not be good enough to avoid a hard border in NI.
Take steel for example. The EU proposes temporary anti dumping levy on Chinese steels.
What happens if the UK don't want to levy same?
That's why for a frictionless or soft border, we need to join the EU customs union.
I have been reflecting on Peters request for an outsider's view of the Brexit process, and I have this to add. Europe , indeed the world knows that the UK currently has the best deal and won't get a better one outside theEU . It remains perplexed that the British political establishment is unwilling or unable or lacks the courage to explain that to their electorate. Knowing this they have difficulty in respecting the bluster and posturing of the UK public representives.
On a personal note , I recall a meeting which took place in Dundalk, on the eve of the single market coming into being. Now we had an extensive customs clearance "industry" in Dundalk. It was the major centre for NI RoI trade, and customs clearance and currency exchange was a very big employer. As a town we had had no investment for 15 years, and things were dire and miserable.
The Irish minister for trade ..Albert, came into what was a very hostile audience .. the local business owners who ran these agencies, and speaking clearly .. stated.. in six months all your businesses are gone. You need to diversify. There is no stopping at the border here.... There was uproar as might be expected, but he kept repeating the same clear message, took questions from the floor etc. It may have helped that he had been a successful self made business man and dancehall promotor and was not beholding to anyone else. No gilding of Lillie's, no prevarication, just the facts. I found that level of courage very refreshing. He subsequently went on to become our prime minister..
I feel that that level of candour is not present in UK discourse.
As an aside, the local industry suffered for a while, the customs agencies reduced or developed competencies for dealing with logistics of dealing with imports into the single market. Call centres came into being and the traffic jam on the main north south route disappeared...
On a personal note , I recall a meeting which took place in Dundalk, on the eve of the single market coming into being. Now we had an extensive customs clearance "industry" in Dundalk. It was the major centre for NI RoI trade, and customs clearance and currency exchange was a very big employer. As a town we had had no investment for 15 years, and things were dire and miserable.
The Irish minister for trade ..Albert, came into what was a very hostile audience .. the local business owners who ran these agencies, and speaking clearly .. stated.. in six months all your businesses are gone. You need to diversify. There is no stopping at the border here.... There was uproar as might be expected, but he kept repeating the same clear message, took questions from the floor etc. It may have helped that he had been a successful self made business man and dancehall promotor and was not beholding to anyone else. No gilding of Lillie's, no prevarication, just the facts. I found that level of courage very refreshing. He subsequently went on to become our prime minister..
I feel that that level of candour is not present in UK discourse.
As an aside, the local industry suffered for a while, the customs agencies reduced or developed competencies for dealing with logistics of dealing with imports into the single market. Call centres came into being and the traffic jam on the main north south route disappeared...
I won't, there's only so many horrible disgusting things we can manage in a single day. Compared to you I'm a rank outsider it seems!
Reminds of Charles Dickens for some reason albeit he had a far better turn of phrase than you appear capable of Tom.
Can't help but agree, we are indeed lacking the clarity and leadership we need at this time. In that statement I feel compelled to include all the other political players in the local arena. Always remain positive though and I'm not so sure that now is the time to be quite so blunt?
Do you think that any other country in the world, apart from Norway, actually pay a premium to trade with the EU? I can accept that the EU wants to dissuade other members from leaving the party but this is not the way to do that.
Non-EU countries do, of course, have to pay the external tariff to the EU. But Britain has to pay £8-£9 billion into the EU budget, the equivalent of a tariff of about 7 per cent on our goods. Our free access is not free access at all. Arguing for the single market on the grounds that you can avoid a 3 per cent tariff by actually paying 7 per cent fee is mis-selling on a scale that dwarfs the PPI scandal.
My impression is that 'not sufficient progress' means we havent given them enough money,I am sure Juncker would give us his wine store if we gave them 100 billion. All the other matters are a side show,the EU need money.
But we need money as well,for the Police,NHS,Social Care,Housebuilding,May's shoes !!!!
I almost hate saying the following,but I agree with Davis....the EU will talk,the UK will talk,but at the eleventh hour a deal will be struck,probably fiollowed by a lengthy transition to get the customs posts in place. Just hope our nerve lasts longer than the EU's,it may be sense prevails at the end and the deal is pretty similar to what we currently have.
If May gives the EU any more money she is toast in the government.
KudosDave
I beg to differ about the importance of money in this discussion. It is a transient effect, the steady state is the relationship..
Dickens wrote fiction - I try to stick to the facts in this thread but you're correct in your assertion that Dickens had a much nicer style of prose than me.
Tom
So we crash out...that could mean we revert to WTO tariffs...being selfish that would mean very low tariffs on engineering items and maybe the deletion of all anti-dumping duties.....if that happened the EU would have to build a fortress Europe,the smuggling possibilities UK-Europe would be amazing,combined with the strong Euro, it would be boom time for UK to EU business. Food will rocket in price so we will have to buy it elsewhere or grow our own. Our government will collect a fortune on tariffs on German Cars and the food from Europe,so Hammond will like it.
Electric bikes,in fact all bikes,could be a 14% tariff,not so bad better than the 54% 'enjoyed' by the rest of the EU.
If it wasnt for the social upheaval,I could convert to a Brexiteer,but it may all turn nasty,Ireland would have real problems without an effective border.
Bet Cameron didnt think about all this when he invented the referendum.
KudosDave
You're doing it again, aren't you?
For you, like all tories, it's all about money whereas for 27 other nations, the benefits of belonging to a large trading bloc outweigh any disadvantages.
The EU, of course, is far more than simply a trading bloc and will ultimately become the United States of Europe. In a generation or two, probably sooner, the UK will once again be begging to to be allowed membership.
Tom
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