Brexit, for once some facts.

[mike killay]

derf, or is it Fred?
You are the stereotyping insulting person
Brexit voters were and are not, as you say, crass, insulting or uniformed.
Why are remainers so bitter?
or is it now only a handful of diehards?

 

[derf]

Have you read that article? It makes no mention of closing the factory, just that they don't know what the future holds, so can't say how the plant will develop. What does, "Whatever else one might accuse the crass,insulting,uninformed brexit voters off, one cannot accuse them of considering the average working people in the UK" mean? What are you talking about, the average working person in the Sunderland area voted out.

derf, it is people like you and oldtom who are constantly seeking out snippet of news and then wringing out the negatives, often where non exist, who are doing the damage.

It's a bit late for that ("wringing out negatives"), am I really the only one here that takes any notice of business news?
http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/25/ryanairs-cutting-the-number-of-flights-from-uk-because-of-brexit-6026669/

 

[oldgroaner]

I don't think that will be the case even if we do not stay in the single market. Our production cost is very much at the same place as France & Germany, all the defensive import duty tariffs against other countries outside the EU will have to stay more or less at the same level for the foreseable future.
From the point of view of taxation, I must say we would be better off pulling out of the single market gradually over time.

Except for the fact that we have to face huge bills to rebuild the navy and coastguard to cover the cost of protecting our shores, and still pay off the huge debt we are in with no obvious means of doing so.
And our services industry isn't guaranteed to remain intact either.
Unless of course the brexit voters were actually misinformed and the government has no intention of defending our borders?
If they do that should please the brexit voters
And now they must be delighted that taxes will have to be raised to cover the cost?


Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

I,m assuming Tilson's reply is to Old Tom..he,s on my ignore list and place is just so much more productive in his absence... Don't understand his level of animosity...my advice ..put the fool on ignore...he,s actually damaging legitimate arguments for staying...polarising us all and stops any reasoned debate.( Tom not Tilson)
BTW , I,m actually fully supportive of legitimate workers coming over, yes it put folk out if work, yes it makes market more competitive, probably to detriment of quality work ( good builders have to cut corners to compete) but I just wonder if same understanding were shown if east Europeans rolled up undercutting insurance, estate agents, banking and finance...but don't worry it will happen...

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

The problem is you're thinking of borders in an old world sense.

Estate Agents, banking, finance etc etc, can all be done remotely anyway, so if people want to under cut, they can do. Think Purple Brick, Uber etc etc, its all about cutting people out of the supply chain.

Even with bikes, look at brands like Rose, Canyon etc etc, they are all about supplying across borders at prices that old style supply chains can't compete with. The world is changing and building a wall won't stop it!

We're part of a global market place, and that means services, products AND workers...you can't stop progress.

 

[tillson]

I,m assuming Tilson's reply is to Old Tom..he,s on my ignore list and place is just so much more productive in his absence... Don't understand his level of animosity...my advice ..put the fool on ignore...he,s actually damaging legitimate arguments for staying...polarising us all and stops any reasoned debate.( Tom not Tilson)
BTW , I,m actually fully supportive of legitimate workers coming over, yes it put folk out if work, yes it makes market more competitive, probably to detriment of quality work ( good builders have to cut corners to compete) but I just wonder if same understanding were shown if east Europeans rolled up undercutting insurance, estate agents, banking and finance...but don't worry it will happen...

Even though I profoundly disagree with nearly all that oldtom has to say, I've not put him on an ignore list because he has a right to be heard.

What I can not understand is his hatred of working people and the ease with which he is able to make accusations of racism. This even extends to a tenuous link, the example being that an element of racists voted to leave the EU, therefore ALL leave voters are fair game to be branded as racists, regardless of their views (his" if the cap fits wear it" remark in an earlier post). This is exactly the same sort of stereotyping mechanism and prejudice which is at the heart of racism and oldtom is as guilty as sin. His rank hypocrisy is staggering in its audacity.

I think it is important to hear people like oldtom because he provides a point of reference or a datum about which to orientate ourselves on what is right and wrong. oldtom gives us a good fix and heading on what is clearly the wrong direction to take. We don't want to be going down a route of hating workers, or acting on stereotype & prejudice.

oldtom's posts should be read because they provide a glimpse into the character of the man and the vignette is rather unpleasant. In fact it is nothing short of sickening.

 

[derf]

Even though I profoundly disagree with nearly all that oldtom has to say, I've not put him on an ignore list because he has a right to be heard.

What I can not understand is his hatred of working people and the ease with which he is able to make accusations of racism. This even extends to a tenuous link, the example being that an element of racists voted to leave the EU, therefore ALL leave voters are fair game to be branded as racists, regardless of their views (his" if the cap fits wear it" remark in an earlier post). This is exactly the same sort of stereotyping mechanism and prejudice which is at the heart of racism and oldtom is as guilty as sin. His rank hypocrisy is staggering in its audacity.

I think it is important to hear people like oldtom because he provides a point of reference or a datum about which to orientate ourselves on what is right and wrong. oldtom gives us a good fix and heading on what is clearly the wrong direction to take. We don't want to be going down a route of hating workers, or acting on stereotype & prejudice.

oldtom's posts should be read because they provide a glimpse into the character of the man and the vignette is rather unpleasant. In fact it is nothing short of sickening.

You should all go on a buhist retreat. I believe there are some in oxfordshire. It seems the only way to maintain that tenuous grasp on ones humanity in an anglo saxon eorld. Im living with the fallout of the miguided decision of ill informed voters (as are sll of you to be fair). FWIW my solution is to try to make life more about relationships,treating others with respect,some care and less about winning and what one can take or have

 

[oldgroaner]

derf, or is it Fred?
You are the stereotyping insulting person
Brexit voters were and are not, as you say, crass, insulting or uniformed.
Why are remainers so bitter?
or is it now only a handful of diehards?

Perhaps because they don't like having their future damaged by people who have been mislead?
And f course no one knows the true state of mind of the people who voted to leave after so many lies have been exposed, and so many traitors to "the cause" exposed as self seeking hypocrites, do they?
So the "Handful of diehards" could well be the majority by now.

 

[oldgroaner]

I,m assuming Tilson's reply is to Old Tom..he,s on my ignore list and place is just so much more productive in his absence... Don't understand his level of animosity...my advice ..put the fool on ignore...he,s actually damaging legitimate arguments for staying...polarising us all and stops any reasoned debate.( Tom not Tilson)
BTW , I,m actually fully supportive of legitimate workers coming over, yes it put folk out if work, yes it makes market more competitive, probably to detriment of quality work ( good builders have to cut corners to compete) but I just wonder if same understanding were shown if east Europeans rolled up undercutting insurance, estate agents, banking and finance...but don't worry it will happen...

As usual not entirely correct
"
Most EU countries imposed temporary labour market restrictions on workers from the eight East European states which joined in 2004, but the UK, Republic of Ireland and Sweden did not. The UK saw an unexpected surge in migrants from those states - the majority from Poland.

Net migration from those states to the UK reached nearly 400,000 in 2004-2011, and a UK census in 2011 suggested about 1.1 million residents were born in those countries."
So that blows Flud's argument out of the water.

We chose not to do the same, and yet there was nothing to stop us as there is a clause to cover that
http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=466&
Not that the Brexit campaign fans would have bothered to check the facts.
Rather interestingly 7 years is mentioned, funny how that number has appeared again on another offer on free movement, isn't it.
Bit of a joke if they bribe us to stay in with something that was available all along and nobody got round to checking.

 

[trex]

It is clear that Westminster has lost touch with a large percentage of English voters before the referendum who then voted for change but may not bother to vote next time. That contrasts with Scotland where Holyrood has not. If a second referendum is called now, the remainers are still motivated and a large percentage of brexiters will not be, I should think the result will be more like Scotland's.

 

[mike killay]

So, what did Corbyn vote?

 

[trex]

he said on BBC he voted remain but insists on 'brexit is brexit' whatever that means.

 

[oldtom]

he said on BBC he voted remain but insists on 'brexit is brexit' whatever that means.

The man is a democrat and he is honest. Therefore he accepts the will of the majority - that's what is meant.

Tom

 

[Kudoscycles]

The problem is you're thinking of borders in an old world sense.

Estate Agents, banking, finance etc etc, can all be done remotely anyway, so if people want to under cut, they can do. Think Purple Brick, Uber etc etc, its all about cutting people out of the supply chain.

Even with bikes, look at brands like Rose, Canyon etc etc, they are all about supplying across borders at prices that old style supply chains can't compete with. The world is changing and building a wall won't stop it!

We're part of a global market place, and that means services, products AND workers...you can't stop progress.

Anyone taken a low cost flight lately,the check-in staff have gone fron Easyjet,suspect Ryanair is the same. You now walk up to a machine,not unlike the self checkout at supermarkets,you put your boarding pass on the screen,it then asks you are you a terrorist with a bomb(who answers yes to that?) and prints out your bag lable.
It through me at first but I suppose we will all get used to it.
It seems to remove the whole going on holiday atmosphere,the little chat with the check in girl,the machine doesnt chat!!!
I understand the fully automated car plant with only robots is not far away.
Maybe we all need to be paid to use our leisure time,for manual work is becoming rare.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

So, what did Corbyn vote?

why do you ask?

 

[trex]

brexit can only happen with support from Corbynite MPs. Owen Smith is quite clear, he wants the single market. Corbyn does not want to say.

 

[oldgroaner]

Even though I profoundly disagree with nearly all that oldtom has to say, I've not put him on an ignore list because he has a right to be heard.

What I can not understand is his hatred of working people and the ease with which he is able to make accusations of racism. This even extends to a tenuous link, the example being that an element of racists voted to leave the EU, therefore ALL leave voters are fair game to be branded as racists, regardless of their views (his" if the cap fits wear it" remark in an earlier post). This is exactly the same sort of stereotyping mechanism and prejudice which is at the heart of racism and oldtom is as guilty as sin. His rank hypocrisy is staggering in its audacity.

I think it is important to hear people like oldtom because he provides a point of reference or a datum about which to orientate ourselves on what is right and wrong. oldtom gives us a good fix and heading on what is clearly the wrong direction to take. We don't want to be going down a route of hating workers, or acting on stereotype & prejudice.

oldtom's posts should be read because they provide a glimpse into the character of the man and the vignette is rather unpleasant. In fact it is nothing short of sickening.

All very uplifting I'm sure if one forgets some of the expressions you have used in the past where you have stereotyped people

"There are too many able bodied young people loafing around on benefits or attending a building which is now called a university, paying £9000 a year to get a "degree" in a subject that is absolutely no use whatsoever."
For example.
Tell me, why is that OK?

 

[Kudoscycles]

brexit can only happen with support from Corbynite MPs. Owen Smith is quite clear, he wants the single market. Corbyn does not want to say.

Owen Smith has said he wants another referendum,I dont agree with that,it should be put to the people by a General Election,when it can be explained in hindsight all the implications.

 

[mike killay]

As far as I can see, Owen Smith, even if by some fluke he can become leader of the PLP, cannot command the support of huge swathes of traditional Labour voters.
Smith will not carry the large number of Corbynites.
How many Blairites will survive any reselection process?
With the loss of the Scottish seats, Labour cannot get enough seats to win.
They are finished.

 

[tillson]

All very uplifting I'm sure if one forgets some of the expressions you have used in the past where you have stereotyped people

"There are too many able bodied young people loafing around on benefits or attending a building which is now called a university, paying £9000 a year to get a "degree" in a subject that is absolutely no use whatsoever."
For example.
Tell me, why is that OK?

Because I used the term "too many young people", the implication being that their numbers are high, but not all and certainly not by association.

oldtom said:

The 'leave' supporters really don't like the association I make with the tattooed, skinhead thugs proudly wearing and brandishing union clothing, flags and banners, being disrespectful to and intimidating immigrants already in the UK. Those people I have described proudly claim to be patriots but they are not - they are simply racists answering the call from fascist politicians who always appeal to the simpletons, thugs and anti-social elements of society.

If there are any in this forum to whom that association applies, I say, 'If the cap fits, wear it!' However, if you believe you are undeserving of such a slight, I say, 'It goes with the territory - you chose to link arms in common cause with the nastiest morons in British society and by your friends, you shall be known.

Using oldtom's stereotyping, my statement would have read that medical students are attending a building which is now called a university, paying £9000 a year to get a "degree" in a subject that is absolutely no use whatsoever." Which is clearly unfair and untrue, but would however pass oldtom's absurd "if the cap fits wear it" and his "it goes with the territory" tests. Because lets face it, some university courses are nothing short of a scam and do not equip young people for anything useful.

You aren't a hater of the working classes too are you? I thought we had a bit of common ground regarding "the workers."