Brexit, for once some facts.

[Danidl]

That sounds more like someone trying to put a spin on it than I did. I only reported facts. You misreported what I wrote, which is how reporters put spin on things. I didn't say "never reported before". Where did you get that from?

It might not be newsworthy enough for you because it doesn't fit with your agenda, but there are probably 80 million people in this country that might be interested to know the truth.

My only agenda is to discover and spread the truth so that regular people can make informed decisions. I guess that that's diametrically opposed to what you're trying to do.

BTW do you work for/with the BBC?

80 -66 = 14 million fictional people, and since the 0 to 16 year olds have very little interest in even domestic politics , an exagerated statistic,...and that is not spin

 

[Danidl]

Because right wind extremists unhappy with their lot blame things on EU and migrants/others doesn't make it so - it seems to crop up every other generation or so after laying stagnant as important lessons seem to get forgotten and the unhealthy Nationalism is fueled by the likes of Trumps, ERGs Farages and European neo Nazis giving them rise.

Umberto Eco Makes a List of the 14 Common Features of Fascism

Eco reduces the qualities of what he calls “Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism” down to 14 “typical” features. “These features," writes the novelist and semiotician, "cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it.”

1. The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
2. The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
3. The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
5. Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
6. Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
7. The obsession with a plot. “The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia.”
8. The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
9. Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
10. Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
11. Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
12. Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
13. Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”

I really enjoyed in the name of the rose ,both book and film, .. He is really on the money with this analysis

 

[Danidl]

The lot of them have right wind.
Your critique of Fascism fails to recognize the faults, all listed previously, of the EU.
Its as though its some perfect example of caring, equal opportunity for all, diverse institution. It is not, in so many ways, all previously listed, its worse than the governance it plans on replacing.
All your arguments against fascism, extreme right, are obviously correct but again you fail to accept or even realise, its rise throughout Europe(actually to a much less degree in UK) is no doubt linked to the policies brought in by EU.
Us leaving or staying will have little effect either way on the overall picture of right wing in Europe.
Look at its rise in Italy and France, how in earth have we got anything to do with that.
Said it before but UK is least racist, least extreme, most socially diverse and most enlightened, with regards all the stuff I, ve gone on about, country in Europe.
EU is not some shining light over any socially enlightened stance. Far from it. Quite the reverse.

Look how far racial and religious tolerance has actually improved in Europe over the last 70 years. There are a number of shocking documentries available on Netflix, showing just how fertile the ground was for progroms against Jews or whoever in Balkan and Baltic states. We have come a long way.

 

[vfr400]

Because right wind extremists unhappy with their lot blame things on EU and migrants/others doesn't make it so - it seems to crop up every other generation or so after laying stagnant as important lessons seem to get forgotten and the unhealthy Nationalism is fueled by the likes of Trumps, ERGs Farages and European neo Nazis giving them rise.

Umberto Eco Makes a List of the 14 Common Features of Fascism

Eco reduces the qualities of what he calls “Ur-Fascism, or Eternal Fascism” down to 14 “typical” features. “These features," writes the novelist and semiotician, "cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it.”

1. The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
2. The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
3. The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
5. Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
6. Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
7. The obsession with a plot. “The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia.”
8. The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
9. Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
10. Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
11. Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
12. Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
13. Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”

That's very interesting because I don't read the press and I don't believe much of what I see on TV. I didn't read or otherwise study any propaganda that led me to this. I Just used my own eyes and logic to judge, but I still feel most of the things in that list. Nobody stirred up those feelings in me. Instead, I brought them all upon myself, then I went looking to see if other people feel the same, and, of course, when I speak to any of my friends, they do.

Where I would disagree is that they are right wing tendencies. I would say that they're more left wing, where it's the oppressed little guys standing up against the corrupt establishment. Nazis and fascists want to oppress freedom of speech, which is what the establishment has done, while as these guys are fighting back to get fairness and openness, so they don't sound like fascists to me.

Finally, when the largest percentage of people vote for an anti-EU party, it doesn't make them extremists. I would say the exact opposite that by definition they're the normal people because there's more of them than any other group. I think you're mis-judging what's going on, the same as the EU bureaucrats. What's going on now is that the normal people have had enough and they want things to change. We just have to hope that a sensible leader comes along and drives them in the right direction otherwise it could get nasty.

 

[Zlatan]

Look how far racial and religious tolerance has actually improved in Europe over the last 70 years. There are a number of shocking documentries available on Netflix, showing just how fertile the ground was for progroms against Jews or whoever in Balkan and Baltic states. We have come a long way.

Yes but still a long way to go. Some parts of EU are appalling with regard to racism. (all stats on line)
Cant under stand argument Brexit is about making any of this worse. It isnt.
UK's stance on many many issues is far in advance of majority of EU. From corruption to anti prejudice laws. Uk is a leader with respect to tolerance. Remainers like to forget all the good aspects of UK. Yes, there are problems but so has EU.
I have lived in UK probably 80% of my time. I have never experienced direct prejudice here however whilst living in France, Spain and Greece I did. (I, m mixed race English, dark skinned, and it wasnt the English bit attracting attention) Yes not a perfect test or indication but a very good guide.
Said it before, but if people living in UK think we are racist, prejudiced for goodness sake stay there.

 

[vfr400]

Look how far racial and religious tolerance has actually improved in Europe over the last 70 years. There are a number of shocking documentries available on Netflix, showing just how fertile the ground was for progroms against Jews or whoever in Balkan and Baltic states. We have come a long way.

I don't see it that way. I think that there's more to stir up racial tension today than there's ever been in my lifetime, and it comes from both sides. I think they should both step away and let it drop. Now we have fights between the sexes (feminism), sexuality (homophobia), size (fatism), class (elitism)and god knows what else to pitch one side against another. I take my hat off to the left wing or whoever it is stirring up all this bullshit. They're doing a fantastic job of undermining the harmony in our society for whatever reason.

 

[Zlatan]

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/world/2018/11/finland-shamed-as-the-eu-s-most-racist-country-in-new-report.html
Only for example.
Ranking EU countries in order of percieved racism UK was second to last. Malta deemed to have least racist attitudes. Brits might have many issues but generally we aint racist, we are a tolerant group. All of us.(even OG, Flecc and JA)

 

[vfr400]

80 -66 = 14 million fictional people, and since the 0 to 16 year olds have very little interest in even domestic politics , an exagerated statistic,...and that is not spin

That's wrong. I know I'm right because I counted them. You can't believe any government statistics. If you want, I can name them all. There's Simon and Jill; Adrian, who lives on his own; Anwa and Liz and their two kids Ade and Shamima; then there's the one with the gammy leg, Steven, I think; Quentin and Isobel, both retired; Idalia and Yuri with their boy Gustov, Peter and another Jill; Jean, the 93 year old who lives on her own. Do you want me to go on and name all the rest because it'll take a while?

Seriously, though. It's not as if the exact number was part of my argument. In case you don't know, in the English language, we have things called "figures of speech", where the words are not meant to be taken literally. What you seem to be trying to do is show that a word is wrong, ergo the whole argument is wrong. It would be a similar thing if I said that you spelt exaggerated wrong, ergo you must be of low intelligence, in which case your argument is invalid, but, luckily for you, I'm intelligent, so I don't look for mistakes in what you wrote. Instead, I try to understand what you're getting at.

 

[Zlatan]

That's wrong. I know I'm right because I counted them. You can't believe any government statistics. If you want, I can name them all. There's Simon and Jill; Adrian, who lives on his own; Anwa and Liz and their two kids Ade and Shamima; then there's the one with the gammy leg, Steven, I think; Quentin and Isobel, both retired; Idalia and Yuri with their boy Gustov, Peter and another Jill; Jean, the 93 year old who lives on her own. Do you want me to go on and name all the rest because it'll take a while?

Seriously, though. It's not as if the exact number was part of my argument. In case you don't know, in the English language, we have things called "figures of speech", where the words are not meant to be taken literally. What you seem to be trying to do is show that a word is wrong, ergo the whole argument is wrong. It would be a similar thing if I said that you spelt exaggerated wrong, ergo you must be of low intelligence, in which case your argument is invalid, but, luckily for you, I'm intelligent, so I don't look for mistakes in what you wrote. Instead, I try to understand what you're getting at.

Lovely post and very clever.

 

[Danidl]

Yes but still a long way to go. Some parts of EU are appalling with regard to racism. (all stats on line)
Cant under stand argument Brexit is about making any of this worse. It isnt.
UK's stance on many many issues is far in advance of majority of EU. From corruption to anti prejudice laws. Uk is a leader with respect to tolerance. Remainers like to forget all the good aspects of UK. Yes, there are problems but so has EU.
I have lived in UK probably 80% of my time. I have never experienced direct prejudice here however whilst living in France, Spain and Greece I did. (I, m mixed race English, dark skinned, and it wasnt the English bit attracting attention) Yes not a perfect test or indication but a very good guide.
Said it before, but if people living in UK think we are racist, prejudiced for goodness sake stay there.

Yes it is highly unfortunate that there is prejudice based on skin colour. But it is not only White on Black , but it is on Black on Blacker ..as much information from the USA testifies. Indeed I saw it myself ,where the young women in Siagon were wearing full facemasks, not for the air pollution , unpleasant as it was, but that their faces would be paler.

 

[Zlatan]

Yes it is highly unfortunate that there is prejudice based on skin colour. But it is not only White on Black , but it is on Black on Blacker ..as much information from the USA testifies. Indeed I saw it myself ,where the young women in Siagon were wearing full facemasks, not for the air pollution , unpleasant as it was, but that their faces would be paler.

Yep, agreed.
Off topic, but a funny story.
About 40 years ago I and a new girl friend went to Leicester. We stopped at a phone booth to check if her grandmother was home. She phoned gran and asked
"Is it ok if I bring my new boyfriend to see you?"
"Ofcourse it is darling, I, ll cook dinner for us all. What's his name?
" His name is ...... (I was named after a famous black athlete)
Grandma asked
"He's not very black is he?"
Girl friend
" Well actually grandma, quite a bit"
Grandma
"Thats fine, I, ll do extra food, see you soon"
????????
She was great.

 

[OxygenJames]

Think it's bad here? Check out France:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/emmanuel-macron-has-united-his-country-against-him/

 

[Zlatan]

Think it's bad here? Check out France:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/04/emmanuel-macron-has-united-his-country-against-him/

And
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/04/brexit-sideshow-for-eu-beset-by-problems
And thats the Guardian.
And remainers see EU as some utopia whereas German industrialists refer to UK as "Treasure Island". (Its exactly why Merkel isnt supporting Macron, who is simply trying to deflect from his problems)

 

[Wicky]

The lot of them have right wind.
Your critique of Fascism fails to recognize the faults, all listed previously, of the EU.

In case it escaped you - the rise of the xenophobic extreme right is closely tied with scapegoating immigration and casting of a new underclass and in turn with blaming EU. Plus making Liberal seem like a dirty word.

Said it before but UK is least racist, least extreme, most socially diverse and most enlightened,

We try but it has this to contend with...

 

[OxygenJames]

 

[Zlatan]

In case it escaped you - the rise of the xenophobic extreme right is closely tied with scapegoating immigration and casting of a new underclass and in turn with blaming EU. Plus making Liberal seem like a dirty word.



We try but it has this to contend with...

I, ve said before, who takes notice of Farage and his outpourings. Its a tiny fraction of Leavers, let alone the country.Did you see how many followed Farage's march? Think it was 47 and to be fair Farage is hardly KKK is he. He, s actually moderate but still ignored.
Exception proving rule... again.
And your blurb just confirms you,ve bought into the propoganda.Its BS designed to slander leavers.
Where are all the xenophobes? All the racists? You met any? I havent.
Even after all our area went through EDL march gathered about 20 people here, and they were mocked. Stop buying into the BS wicki.
Instead of looking for ammunition against leavers you should be examing EU. One, there is loads more wrong in there than assumed.
Two.. We are staying in it.
And BTW those posters are 3 years old now. Come on, catch up.Move on.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/dec/16/racism-on-the-rise-across-europe-football-raheem-sterling-chelsea
Have a read through this. Rise of right is EU wide and much less significant in UK than EU as a whole. Look at the difference between UK, s racism and others. Yes, it shouldnt happen anywhere but it is hardly an issue at all in UK compared with France. (Read comments from competitors about make up of French team)

 

[oldgroaner]

That sounds more like someone trying to put a spin on it than I did. I only reported facts. You misreported what I wrote, which is how reporters put spin on things. I didn't say "never reported before". Where did you get that from?

It might not be newsworthy enough for you because it doesn't fit with your agenda, but there are probably 80 million people in this country that might be interested to know the truth.

My only agenda is to discover and spread the truth so that regular people can make informed decisions. I guess that that's diametrically opposed to what you're trying to do.

BTW do you work for/with the BBC?

Whoa there, you have put another spin on my post haven't you?
Did you bother to read it?

I said this, not you!
"never reported before".
I didn't accuse you of saying it did i?

You have misrepresented my post, the very thing you accused me of!
Here you are READ IT this time
"
Not at all,they have never been reported before have they? Full marks for putting a spin on it though, it simply isn't considered newsworthy enough to be reported.
Not important any way it's it?

The inference I was making should have been clear, there was no sinister intent on the part of the BBC in not reporting something that suited your agenda.
But you spun that to make it look as if there was a conspiracy of some sort.

 

[oldgroaner]

Got a spare one?

 

[oldgroaner]

If you watch this site any more you will need to be force fed by a tube.

Got a spare one?

 

[vfr400]

Lovely post and very clever.

Thank you, but I have to admit that you're also clever for pointing it out.