Brexit, for once some facts.

flecc

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Except flecc that the supposition that 97% don't suffer is whistling past graveyard stuff... . We know that 2% + actually die
So what, a very high proportion of them would have died about then anyway from the conditions they already have, most notably with old age in addition.

I've already covered this in detail with all the numbers over a decade, the expected average annual deaths have accounted for much of the Covid death rate. Covid is only a part of that 2%+.

And many of the so called Covid deaths are not due to it at all. They are due to that silly mandatory 28 day law.
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Woosh

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Remember my continuous advocacy of the Swedish relaxed voluntary approach? They didn't throw away a pro rata £50 billions to shut businesses, to pay people to stay off work, to close schools or build Nightingale hospitals etc.

Instead they stayed cool, avoided hysteria, just giving the necessary advice and leaving people to get on with it, and that resulted in a third less deaths than us pro rata.
the Swedes' success may be partly down to their national character, having fewer hooligans than we do.
As for the amount we spent on covid, the 68 billions spent on furlough is justified, the rest was thrown in mostly wrong directions like test & trace and god knows how much went to friends of the conservative MPs.
 

flecc

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the 68 billions spent on furlough is justified
I couldn't disagree more strongly, that was the worst spend of all. Have you already forgotten what happened? Instead of being at work, as in Sweden, where their employers could have instituted safe regimes or in many cases where their employment was naturally Covid safe, they were at home mixing with their friends and neighbours socialising and doing their drinking with them in each others homes in lieu of pubs.

And have you forgotten how Bournemouth had to close the seafront to stop even more of the furloughed pouring onto the already densely packed beaches? Not to mention all the overcrowded beauty spots with masses of people who were denied a foreign holiday both years. And the youngsters off school who crowded together in large gangs unsupervised.

That's a major reason why we had the surges in infections, the furloughs, a huge mistake which I've already harshly criticised.
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Woosh

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Once the decision to lockdown was taken (to save the NHS), schools had to be closed, parents were needed at home, cinemas and restaurants must also be closed. Furlough is the only way to keep businesses going. Although I closed my shop for about a year, I kept staff working from home as much as possible and have never used furlough. I work as IT consultant for some large businesses in Southend (among them, Adventure Island which employs about 600 people), all were forced to close* and furlough their staff.
I understand and support the furlough scheme.

*because customers can't come to them.
 
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flecc

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Once the decision to lockdown was taken (to save the NHS), schools had to be closed, parents were needed at home, cinemas and restaurants must also be closed. Furlough is the only way to keep businesses going.
Oh dear, Save the NHS! I never fell for that political excuse.

The Swedes are at least as proud and protective of their welfare state and health service as we are, but they didn't shut all those places down. So furlough was proven by them not to be the only way to keep business going, all it did was help increase our death rate by almost 50% over theirs in the ways I've shown and which were widely reported.

Only a tiny minority of European countries had furlough schemes, yet the others nearly all did far better than us with Covid outcomes. Even the few with furlough schemes spent far less than us on them and performed better with Covid.

Sorry Woosh, but I'm giving you the facts, you are repeating the government lines as if they are facts. They aren't, the fact that really matters is that we spent immensely more than anyone else on attempting protection, only to end up with one of the worst death rates under the care of the "protected and saved" NHS. All attempts to justify that are invalid excuses and leave me thinking we'll make the same disastrous mistakes again if that isn't acknowledged.
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jonathan.agnew

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Exactly as I've said, London's low vaccination rates with very good outcomes. Again you pick out an isolated example of something that has been going slightly up and down like a yo yo all year.

Except SOUTH CROYDON is where I live and what you conveniently ignore despite all my explanations of the big differences.

Give it up Jonathan, your second failure to show different from what I've posted. I'm using the same government sources you are so you're doomed to fail to show a difference.
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In the week of 4 august croydon saw an increase in infection of 7.3%, the second highest in the capital. I'm not picking out isolated examples, I'm showing you a pattern (and am more interested in that than ex post facto fantasies about the inhabitants of the mythical state of croydon)
Edit - clearly you're not acting on an assumption of herd immunity (sweden had severe lock downs later in the pandemic to protect critical services).
 
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Woosh

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Oh dear, Save the NHS! I never fell for that political excuse.

The Swedes are at least as proud and protective of their welfare state and health service as we are, but they didn't shut all those places down. So furlough was proven by them not to be the only way to keep business going, all it did was help increase our death rate by almost 50% over theirs in the ways I've shown and which were widely reported.

Only a tiny minority of European countries had furlough schemes, yet the others nearly all did far better than us with Covid outcomes. Even the few with furlough schemes spent far less than us on them and performed better with Covid.

Sorry Woosh, but I'm giving you the facts, you are repeating the government lines as if they are facts. They aren't, the fact that really matters is that we spent immensely more than anyone else on attempting protection, only to end up with one of the worst death rates under the care of the "protected and saved" NHS. All attempts to justify that are invalid excuses and leave me thinking we'll make the same disastrous mistakes again if that isn't acknowledged.
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I am not repeating government's lines. The furlough scheme is necessary as soon as businesses are forced to close under lockdown. There is simply no way around it. The scheme grants roughly £5,000 per person it helped. Think about grants for e-cars, house insulation etc.
As to why we have to protect the NHS, I think we must and have no other choice.
 

Zlatan

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I think the contrasting opinions in here over Covid only go to show just how difficult a task to deal with it is.. There seems no definitive answer and point many forget is we are still nearer epidemic's beginning than end..
One of issues I was amazed and appalled at... On first week of Lockdown we were in Filey (to isolate from pregnant daughter who herself was isolating from Fireservice husband) and reluctantly, after much deliberation decided to go out on ebike. Followed cliff to Scarborough and never saw a soul. Overlooking Scarboro, from half mile or so, I looked onto seafront to see throngs of people, no masks, in and out of packed amusement arcades and full Fish and chip shops. Looked like any normal busy bank holiday... Wonder how many were claiming furlough, businesses and punters? I pedalled home bewildered and worried.???
Just how is a society supposed to cope with a pandemic when it's members behave like this.. And, inevitably, those same folk will blame someone else.. "the rules were confusing so I went in a packed amusement arcade and stuffed my face with fish and chips" . Sort of thing.
 
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oyster

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I think the contrasting opinions in here over Covid only go to show just how difficult a task to deal with it is.. There seems no definitive answer and point many forget is we are still nearer epidemic's beginning than end..
One of issues I was amazed and appalled at... On first week of Lockdown we were in Filey (to isolate from pregnant daughter who herself was isolating from Fireservice husband) and reluctantly, after much deliberation decided to go out on ebike. Followed cliff to Scarborough and never saw a soul. Overlooking Scarboro, from half mile or so, I looked onto seafront to see throngs of people, no masks, in and out of packed amusement arcades and full Fish and chip shops. Looked like any normal busy bank holiday... Wonder how many were claiming furlough, businesses and punters? I pedalled home bewildered and worried.???
Just how is a society supposed to cope with a pandemic when residents behave like this.. And, inevitably, those same residents will blame someone else.. "the rules were confusing so I went in a packed amusement arcade".. Sort of thing.
Wales still has rules. Recently, there have been, I think, slightly more not wearing masks. Trouble is, the genuine exemptions are difficult to identify. Lots of shop staff not wearing masks - the rules say customers must, not staff. Which seems somewhat odd.

Also, as throughout, too many with noses entirely uncovered.

Social distancing seems much worse. But still more than pre-pandemic.
 
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oyster

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Too many belong to the bunch of self-interested shysters:

The Conservative MP Owen Paterson faces a 30-day suspension from the House of Commons for an “egregious” breach of lobbying rules, raising the possibility he could lose his seat if enough constituents trigger a byelection.

The MP for North Shropshire, a former cabinet minister, was found by the Commons commissioner for standards, Kathryn Stone, to have breached paid advocacy rules, after it was discovered he had worked as a consultant to Randox, a clinical diagnostics company, since August 2015. It was also discovered he was a paid consultant to Lynn’s Country Foods, a processor and distributor of meat products since December 2016.


30 days? 30 years. With hard labour. :)
 
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Woosh

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Wonder how many were claiming furlough,
why should you even ask the question?
Government told them not to go to work but does not tell them to stay at home.
Remember which idiot who said 'eat out to help out'?
 
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Zlatan

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why should you even ask the question?
Government told them not to go to work but does not tell them to stay at home.
Claiming Furlough to prevent mixing at work and they need telling dont mix socially??
Pubs closed, so we, ll congregate in amusement arcades??( and businesses were as bad)
Give up Woosh folk were taking the Michael.
"we, re on furlough, where can we go?"
Hardly the reaction folk should have had.
Essential travel only but trip to Scarboro is fine.
We had a letter from management committee (it's a gated community) saying we couldn't use holiday home. (had to prove isolation situation with daughter) yet Scarboro was packed with visitors. At one stage police were sending folk home.
Windsurfers, surfers and canoeists kicked off beaches by police but still folk visiting beauty spots. (in droves.. Read about Malham Cove) Was utterly ridiculous.
And nothing to do with Government and all to do with people's stupidity.
 
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Woosh

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Claiming Furlough to prevent mixing at work and they need telling dont mix socially??
Pubs closed, so we, ll congregate in amusement arcades??
Give up Woosh folk were taking the Michael.
"we, re on furlough, where can we go?"
Hardly the reaction folk should have had.
Essential travel only but trip to Scarboro is fine.
We had a letter from management committee saying we couldn't use holiday home. (had to prove isolation situation with daughter) yet Scarboro was packed with visitors. At one stage police were sending folk home.
those who are furloughed are not criminals, it's our government's policy and message that encourage them to do what they did.
 

Zlatan

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those who are furloughed are not criminals, it's our government's policy and message that encourage them to do what they did.
I didn't call them criminals.
How many claimed benefits of Furlough but then chose to ignore advice/rules/wear a mask etc etc.
How is it Governments fault if after they chose to pay workers money to stay at home then those workers choose to ignore stay at home advice (essential travel only) and not only drive miles to such places as Scarboro but also flock into amusement arcades which should be closed? Why is that Governments fault? Poor messaging I suppose. Or Cummings' jaunt?
People took advantage, think it won't happen to them and do whatever they want. (not everybody obviously but lots)
Perhaps our Government should have acted in a more fascist fashion and beaten a few up.
Did you ever actually have a look at various places during lockdown. You, d have guessed it was August Bank Holiday during initial stages of first lockdown in Scarboro. And on reports it wasn't unique.
 
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flecc

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In the week of 4 august croydon saw an increase in infection of 7.3%, the second highest in the capital. I'm not picking out isolated examples
Yes you are picking on isolated examples, that is one again, back in August!

It's the 26th October, so you are clearly looking for examples.

The undeniable fact is that in South Croydon we are doing far better with Covid on a very low vaccination rate than the North of England areas are with high vaccination rates. And I've repeatedly posted the evidence on that over months using the same government sources as you, sometimes even including links for others to check I'm posting accurately.

Nothing mythical whatsoever.

Your answer is to quote isolated examples for a larger area which has no relevance as I've previously carefully explained.

Once again, Croydon is a huge borough in two distinct and radically different parts, North and South, separated by a very large commercial zone and an East West green belt. North is London proper and very long has been. South is a comparatively recent tack on of what was once Surrey. Mixing of the two is minimal, we don't use the same public transport and to a fair extent don't use the same retail areas. I've been very clear that I've been quoting for South Croydon as my area example, even with a link showing the precise map area where I live. So please give it a rest with quoting for the whole Borough of Croydon to try to mislead others

As for Sweden, they achieved a third less deaths than us on a tiny proportion of our expenditure, which as you acknowledge was only very late in the period anyway.

You seem to have a lot of difficult in knowing what is failure and what is success.
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Woosh

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How is it Governments fault if after they chose to pay workers money to stay at home then those workers choose to ignore stay at home advice (essential travel only) and not only drive miles to such places as Scarboro but also flock into amusement arcades which should be closed?
when did you see that? was it when Sunak told them to 'eat out to help out?'
 

Zlatan

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when did you see that? was it when Sunak told them to 'eat out to help out?'
No, well before that... As I actually said initial stages of first lockdown. But the behaviour persisted but found solace in scheme you mention.
 

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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I didn't call them criminals.
How many claimed benefits of Furlough but then chose to ignore advice/rules/wear a mask etc etc.
How is it Governments fault if after they chose to pay workers money to stay at home then those workers choose to ignore stay at home advice (essential travel only) and not only drive miles to such places as Scarboro but also flock into amusement arcades which should be closed? Why is that Governments fault? Poor messaging I suppose. Or Cummings' jaunt?
People took advantage, think it won't happen to them and do whatever they want. (not everybody obviously but lots)
Perhaps our Government should have acted in a more fascist fashion and beaten a few up.
Did you ever actually have a look at various places during lockdown. You, d have guessed it was August Bank Holiday during initial stages of first lockdown in Scarboro. And on reports it wasn't unique.
Of course it wasn't the Government's fault in those instances, but what can you expect from members of the public, enough of whom voted for Brexit without engaging the brain first? ;)
 

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