Brexit, for once some facts.

[Kudoscycles]

Thank goodness that Trump is president of the US....the currency situation is actually not bad at the moment for our trade.
May is making a mess of things but Trump is even worse,so the £ is getting stronger against the US dollar,currently about 1.30. The EU seems to be sorting themselves out so the Euro is getting stronger against the £.,currently about 1.12.
So our dollar costed products from the US and China are getting cheaper and what we sell to the EU is looking cheap,with a good margin. The only concern is that with an advantageous position our balance of trade is not getting as positive as it should.
Still 'make hay whilst the sun shines'
KudosDave

 

[Woosh]

The EU seems to be sorting themselves out so the Euro is getting stronger against the £.,currently about 1.12.

that seems to be the result of a Macron factor.

 

[oldgroaner]

... Yes , makes sense. That is the kind of thing a mechanical flywheel based storage could offer and likely be the optimum solution. A DC generator linked to a flywheel could deliver the large current needed for charging and be replenished by a lower power AC supply. .. very old technology brought up to date. If you look at the daily power consumption curve there is a huge lull between 11 pm and 6 am and another in the 2 pm to 5 pm slot. Using lower priced electricity , even petrol service stations could get in on the act.

Like the song from "That was the Week that was"
It's all been done before
Gyrobuses
http://jalopnik.com/how-the-swiss-developed-an-emissions-free-bus-without-u-1413061006

 

[Danidl]

Like the song from "That was the Week that was"
It's all been done before
Gyrobuses
http://jalopnik.com/how-the-swiss-developed-an-emissions-free-bus-without-u-1413061006

Yes of course not , the advantages are that the flywheels would be static, could be placed underground in one of the disused petrol tanks , for added safety, in case of flywheel disintegration.

 

[oldgroaner]

Yes of course not , the advantages are that the flywheels would be static, could be placed underground in one of the disused petrol tanks , for added safety, in case of flywheel disintegration.

Why not incorporate a flywheel chamber into the base of the Wind turbines?
perhaps into a pit?
And extend the storage period with a low level AC excitation system to keep them up to speed for small scale wind fluctuations?
Interesting

 

[Woosh]

Why not incorporate a flywheel chamber into the base of the Wind turbines?
perhaps into a pit?
And extend the storage period with a low level AC excitation system to keep them up to speed for small scale wind fluctuations?
Interesting

(steel) flywheels have fairly low energy density.

 

[Danidl]

Why not incorporate a flywheel chamber into the base of the Wind turbines?
perhaps into a pit?
And extend the storage period with a low level AC excitation system to keep them up to speed for small scale wind fluctuations?
Interesting

There is a lot of angular momentum in the blades themselves, there is also, as Woosh has said , no particular reason why storage needs to be located at the production site. With a national grid anywhere is local. In fact there is good reason to place storage and regeneration close to end users, as it can allow decisions of strengthing a local grid be delayed... think about the city financial exchange area, where computing power is needed at specific times and needs a large energy consumption at these times.

 

[oldgroaner]

Here is another interesting alternative layout with two separate rotors on the same hub
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150309174513.htm

Large eddy simulation of the twin rotors

 

[Danidl]

(steel) flywheels have fairly low energy density.

Yep but there are plenty of newer technologies .. carbon and glass fibre for tension and dense materials for the peripheral structure.

 

[oldgroaner]

There is a lot of angular momentum in the blades themselves, there is also, as Woosh has said , no particular reason why storage needs to be located at the production site. With a national grid anywhere is local. In fact there is good reason to place storage and regeneration close to end users, as it can allow decisions of strengthing a local grid be delayed... think about the city financial exchange area, where computing power is needed at specific times and needs a large energy consumption at these times.

Surely if large scale storage is required, the use of gigantic Hydraulic accumulators would be both more efficient and require less maintenance?
Here in Hull we were the first to have a Hydraulic power station
This from Wikipedia
"The first practical installation which supplied hydraulic power to the public was in Kingston upon Hull, in England. The Hull Hydraulic Power Company began operation in 1876. They had 2.5 miles (4.0 km) of pipes, which were up to 6 inches (150 mm) in diameter, and ran along the west bank of the River Hull from Sculcoates bridge to its junction with the Humber. The pumping station was near the north end of the pipeline, on Machell Street, near the disused Scott Street bascule bridge, which was powered hydraulically. There was an accumulator at Machell Street, and another one much nearer the Humber, on the corner of Grimsby Lane. Special provision was made where the pressure main passed under the entrance to Queens Dock.[4] By 1895, pumps rated at 250 hp (190 kW) pumped some 500,000 imperial gallons (2,300 m3) of water into the system each week, and 58 machines were connected to it. The working pressure was 700 psi (48 bar), and the water was used to operate cranes, dock gates, and a variety of other machinery connected with ships and shipbuilding. The Hull system lasted until the 1940s, when the systematic bombing of the city during the Second World War led to the destruction of much of the infrastructure,[5] and the company was wound up in 1947,[6] when Mr F J Haswell, who had been the manager and engineer since 1904, retired.[7]
Could hydraulic power make a comeback? it would certainly store a lot of power and do heavy lifting and motive jobs.

 

[Danidl]

Surely if large scale storage is required, the use of gigantic Hydraulic accumulators would be both more efficient and require less maintenance?
Here in Hull we were the first to have a Hydraulic power station
This from Wikipedia
"The first practical installation which supplied hydraulic power to the public was in Kingston upon Hull, in England. The Hull Hydraulic Power Company began operation in 1876. They had 2.5 miles (4.0 km) of pipes, which were up to 6 inches (150 mm) in diameter, and ran along the west bank of the River Hull from Sculcoates bridge to its junction with the Humber. The pumping station was near the north end of the pipeline, on Machell Street, near the disused Scott Street bascule bridge, which was powered hydraulically. There was an accumulator at Machell Street, and another one much nearer the Humber, on the corner of Grimsby Lane. Special provision was made where the pressure main passed under the entrance to Queens Dock.[4] By 1895, pumps rated at 250 hp (190 kW) pumped some 500,000 imperial gallons (2,300 m3) of water into the system each week, and 58 machines were connected to it. The working pressure was 700 psi (48 bar), and the water was used to operate cranes, dock gates, and a variety of other machinery connected with ships and shipbuilding. The Hull system lasted until the 1940s, when the systematic bombing of the city during the Second World War led to the destruction of much of the infrastructure,[5] and the company was wound up in 1947,[6] when Mr F J Haswell, who had been the manager and engineer since 1904, retired.[7]
Could hydraulic power make a comeback? it would certainly store a lot of power and do heavy lifting and motive jobs.

In my opinion the answer is yes. There are locations where pumped storage is a good solution. Like all civil engineering structures, it is expensive and durable. Remember in the 1870s , options were more limited.

 

[oldgroaner]

In my opinion the answer is yes. There are locations where pumped storage is a good solution. Like all civil engineering structures, it is expensive and durable. Remember in the 1870s , options were more limited.

But their faith and willingness to take the long view (unlike today) were not, and there is still one hydraulic system operating on Bristol Docks

Bristol Harbour still has a working system, the pumping machinery of which was supplied by Fullerton, Hodgart and Barclay of Paisley, Scotland in 1907. The engine house is a grade II* listed building, constructed in 1887,fully commissioned by 1888, with a tower at one end to house the hydraulic accumulator.[35] A second accumulator was fitted outside the building (dated 1954) which enables the operation of the system to be more easily visualised.
Amazingly River water or rather thin Mud was the source for the Hull system
" In Hull, the Machell Street pumping station has been reused as a workshop. The building still supports the sectional cast-iron roof tank used to allow the silt-laden water of the River Hull to settle, "
"Silt laden?" more like a mobile swamp!
Anyone familiar with the River Hull sludge will gasp with amazement that they got away with that!

 

[Danidl]

But their faith and willingness to take the long view (unlike today) were not, and there is still one hydraulic system operating on Bristol Docks

Bristol Harbour still has a working system, the pumping machinery of which was supplied by Fullerton, Hodgart and Barclay of Paisley, Scotland in 1907. The engine house is a grade II* listed building, constructed in 1887,fully commissioned by 1888, with a tower at one end to house the hydraulic accumulator.[35] A second accumulator was fitted outside the building (dated 1954) which enables the operation of the system to be more easily visualised.
Amazingly River water or rather thin Mud was the source for the Hull system
" In Hull, the Machell Street pumping station has been reused as a workshop. The building still supports the sectional cast-iron roof tank used to allow the silt-laden water of the River Hull to settle, "
"Silt laden?" more like a mobile swamp!
Anyone familiar with the River Hull sludge will gasp with amazement that they got away with that!

.. you of course forgetting tower bridge which has an ingenious hydraulic system.

 

[Zlatan]

Surely if large scale storage is required, the use of gigantic Hydraulic accumulators would be both more efficient and require less maintenance?
Here in Hull we were the first to have a Hydraulic power station
This from Wikipedia
"The first practical installation which supplied hydraulic power to the public was in Kingston upon Hull, in England. The Hull Hydraulic Power Company began operation in 1876. They had 2.5 miles (4.0 km) of pipes, which were up to 6 inches (150 mm) in diameter, and ran along the west bank of the River Hull from Sculcoates bridge to its junction with the Humber. The pumping station was near the north end of the pipeline, on Machell Street, near the disused Scott Street bascule bridge, which was powered hydraulically. There was an accumulator at Machell Street, and another one much nearer the Humber, on the corner of Grimsby Lane. Special provision was made where the pressure main passed under the entrance to Queens Dock.[4] By 1895, pumps rated at 250 hp (190 kW) pumped some 500,000 imperial gallons (2,300 m3) of water into the system each week, and 58 machines were connected to it. The working pressure was 700 psi (48 bar), and the water was used to operate cranes, dock gates, and a variety of other machinery connected with ships and shipbuilding. The Hull system lasted until the 1940s, when the systematic bombing of the city during the Second World War led to the destruction of much of the infrastructure,[5] and the company was wound up in 1947,[6] when Mr F J Haswell, who had been the manager and engineer since 1904, retired.[7]
Could hydraulic power make a comeback? it would certainly store a lot of power and do heavy lifting and motive jobs.

How is hydraulic power stored,surely its springs , compressed gas or something similar...???

I,d guess its not the hydraulics storing energy, merely a means of transferring it.?? ( pneumatics are different) ???
Hydraulics by nature can not be compressed,hence cant store energy??? An accumulator must have a medium capable of storing energy seperate to the oil.(ie bend a spring, compress a gas or raise a weight) The hydraulics surely are simply an energy transfer mechanism.Not a storage.
Mechanical energy storage is not very dense. Compressed gas for example needs 11 times the volume as petrol / diesel and about double best batteries.( at least)

 

[Woosh]

Hydraulics by nature can not be compressed,hence cant store energy??? An accumulator must have a medium capable of storing energy seperate to the oil.( or whatever)

potential energy.

you pump water to a higher tank, gravity releases the potential energy when required.

 

[oldgroaner]

.. you of course forgetting tower bridge which has an ingenious hydraulic system.

No, actually, that was another Armstrong installation originally pumped pressure to the accumulators was supplier for many years by two double tandem compound steam engines, powered by four Lancashire boilers. In addition, two hydraulic accumulators boosted power when the bridge had to be opened. The high pressure water went out to the river piers, which housed the hydraulic motors.
I am an avid fan of the work of Lord Armstrong as you may have gathered already!

 

[Danidl]

How is hydraulic power stored,surely its springs , compressed gas or something similar...???

I,d guess its not the hydraulics storing energy, merely a means of transferring it.?? ( pneumatics are different) ???
Hydraulics by nature can not be compressed,hence cant store energy??? An accumulator must have a medium capable of storing energy seperate to the oil.(ie bend a spring, compress a gas or raise a weight) The hydraulics surely are simply an energy transfer mechanism.Not a storage.
Mechanical energy storage is not very dense. Compressed gas for example needs 11 times the volume as petrol / diesel and about double best batteries.( at least)

Liquids can be compressed and can therefore store energy. . But the easiest way is to use height of liquid. As a diver you will be familiar with pressure rising by 1 bar per 10 m of water.

 

[flecc]

Yep but there are plenty of newer technologies .. carbon and glass fibre for tension and dense materials for the peripheral structure.

Indeed, I remember seeing later developments of flywheels resembling childrens spinning tops in shape. The outer periphery very thin but tapering inwards towards top and bottom with most of the mass increasing inboard. Seemed counter-intuitive, but they were designed to run at jet turbine speeds, typically between 20 and 25,000 rpm, so the design avoided the internal material stresses that promote breakup.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

How is hydraulic power stored,surely its springs , compressed gas or something similar...???

I,d guess its not the hydraulics storing energy, merely a means of transferring it.?? ( pneumatics are different) ???
Hydraulics by nature can not be compressed,hence cant store energy??? An accumulator must have a medium capable of storing energy seperate to the oil.(ie bend a spring, compress a gas or raise a weight) The hydraulics surely are simply an energy transfer mechanism.Not a storage.
Mechanical energy storage is not very dense. Compressed gas for example needs 11 times the volume as petrol / diesel and about double best batteries.( at least)

Basically the simplest accumulator consisted of a very large weighted piston lifted by hydraulic pressure, which when released allowed the weight to fall pressurising the system, a spring, gas pocket and many other devices have been utilised.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_accumulator
Theoretically you could pressurise anything to act against the hydraulic medium or even (Theoretically)make an accumulator the size of a Gasometer with hundreds of feeds into and out of it if you wished.

An accumulator can hold energy for the length of time the valves are closed it is indeed both a transfer of energy and storage, as that energy can be released at a time of your choosing,

Since they can theoretically be made on such a large scale (but much more likely of a smaller size in a matrix) and are completely reliable efficiency isn't such a critical factor.

No battery technology can hope to store the amount of energy that a Matrix of accumulators that equal the capacity of a Gasometer sized Hydraulic accumulator can retain, can it?

And the stored energy can be released and controlled very simply with no environmental impact, in the case of the Hull Hydraulic power station the water passed though the three cylinder engines, and of course the hydraulic rams where they were used and back into the River Hull

 

[Zlatan]

Liquids can be compressed and can therefore store energy. . But the easiest way is to use height of liquid. As a diver you will be familiar with pressure rising by 1 bar per 10 m of water.

The pressure rises but the density remains constant. ( Until extreme pressures ,water compresses minute amounts but not until 1000's of bar are attained) Under that level any work done compressing the fluid would be waisted. Fluids can not be compressed, as a means of energy storage.They can only store energy (PE) by being raised above a datum.point.

When pressure vessels are tested they are put under load with fluid ( sometimes oil, sometimes water) then if vessel fails there is no release of energy. ( ie an explosion)

OG and Woosh..yep see that.