Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Guess the writer for a bonus point:

"She’s wary of telling me which way she voted. “People get mad and think you’re evil,” she says, so I know exactly how she voted. You hear the same thing all the time, a reluctance to divulge for fear of opprobrium. Eventually she says: “I voted for Boris. Don’t tell anyone.”

Don’t worry, Sue, your secret’s safe with me. And here’s the thing: right now on Teesside, you’re in the majority. No need to be a shy Tory any more. Most people were with you and for the same reasons. Not just Jeremy Corbyn. Not just Brexit. Those were the catalysts or the tipping points, but the quiet march away from Labour began at least five, if not 10, years ago: the gradual realisation that the party for which — like Sue — they had always hitherto voted no longer liked them very much and despised their values. They perhaps had no problem with higher tax rates and nationalisation. It was the other stuff that did it: indiscriminate welfare overreach (which the hard-working working class resents), uncontrolled immigration and the culture — ie, the new culture of the party that had been set up to represent them.

So they elected a Tory as mayor of the Tees Valley and evicted Labour from running Middlesbrough in favour of Independents. And now the seats of Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland, Stockton South, Bishop Auckland, Sedgefield, Redcar (Redcar!) — all Conservative. A swathe of blue along the Steel River, the most working-class area in the country.

I suppose it would be going too far to suggest that the comedian Roy Chubby Brown won the election for Boris Johnson, although it would be nearer the mark than simply parroting “Brexit” and “Corbyn”. Brown is Middlesbrough’s biggest export, since we stopped building the bridges of the world. He is from Grangetown, next to (and slightly downmarket from) South Bank. His humour is not to everybody’s tastes: like a dafter version of Bernard Manning, he stands on stage in flying helmet and goggles and spews forth endless, magnificent smut. But he is extraordinarily popular. The last time I spoke to him, on Friday, was before a performance in front of 700, a sellout again, in Blackpool.

So what did the Labour council in his home town do? Effectively banned him from appearing there, in front of his ferociously loyal home-town audience. His humour didn’t fit with their principles, these cut-price commissars announced. The ban was overturned last month by Middlesbrough’s Independent mayor, but the message had been heard: you will enjoy only humour approved by us. Brown, a habitual Labour voter, won’t be voting Labour again — and nor will his fans.

In the living room of his house, Brown has a painting of a chap cycling to the evening shift at the steelworks, which he bought because it reminded him of his dad. It’s by Teesside’s most notable artist, Mackenzie Thorpe — I have one in my house, too. Thorpe may not be to your tastes. Certainly he’s not to the taste of the Middlesbrough Institute of Modern Art (Mima), which finds his work naff and will not show it.

This large, expensive edifice, ordained by a Labour council, will not show the kind of art that appeals to local people. As Thorpe put it, on an occasion that Mima was featuring the usual egregious tat by the likes of Tracey Emin: “People don’t go to Mima because, by and large, they don’t like the work on show. it doesn’t relate to them — simple. Mima just does not get the local population: they continue to dish up their vision of what they think we should enjoy and persist in ignoring demands for something we would like to see.”

The leftish elite on Teesside despises both the humour and artistic tastes of the locals and, effectively, outlaws it. Why, then, would the local people continue to give this elite their support?"

So they voted to protect the offshore tax accounts and damage their own prospects?
That won't last long when the situation doesn't look so rosy.
And your corny propaganda won't change that

 

[50Hertz]

Hang on, you criticise Abbot and forget that Patel was busted for dishonesty over unauthorised trips to Israel.
How does that equate with putting her in charge of Law and order?
And for your information

Labour= who knows whether it would be good or bad
Conservative= the cause of the discontent that led to Brexit therefore bad.

Even you should be able to understand that.
You talk about lefty filtration mode, it doesn't compare with voting in the sort of dishonest politicians that make up the Conservative party, that has a membership newly swelled by 5,000 fascists, does it?

A dishonest Home Secretary, or a proven hypocritical, semi literate idiot who looks and talks like an escapee from the local mong farm. Given that choice, I don’t think you can criticise anyone for the way they voted. Of course, you won’t understand this and that is why BJ will remain in number 10 for at least a decade.

 

[OxygenJames]

I was born in a village in the countryside and have always lived in rural villages. I just can’t understand or accept that people derive pleasure, entertainment and titillation from the killing of animals who only want to live undisturbed and to survive. That’s all they want, and people who kill them for pleasure are sick in the head.

Do you eat meat?

 

[oldgroaner]

and:

"Middlesbrough, a port, has always had immigrant labour and, indeed, the town was built by Irish immigrants. Racial conflict is almost entirely absent. But local people are not happy that the town has recently become a dumping ground for economic migrants, or that the same migrants alter the culture of the place and undercut local wages.

Suggest such a thing, though, and your betters will tell you you’re a racist. The same people who are contemptuous of Brown and Thorpe also welcome unconstrained immigration. Indeed, pick away at the belief systems of that elite, and thus the Labour Party, and you will find that in almost every case, economic policy aside, they do not accord with those of local people: not on the traditional family, on welfare benefits, on gender and identity politics, on religious faith."

They will be rather upset when it turns out the government doesn't reduce the number of immigrants, won't they?
Did the number of people coming in reduce under the Conservatives?
Answer No they did not, so what was the point in voting for them, simply because they lied about their intentions?

 

[flecc]

THE EU “will be the loser” if the European Commission fails to make a trade and security deal with Britain by the end of 2020.

Little rebellious Hungary won't get anywhere with this silliness.

The truth is that for all the EU countries, the single market is far more valuable than the trade that's done with the UK.

We will get what we are given in the trade negotiations, nothing more.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

A dishonest Home Secretary, or a proven hypocritical, semi literate idiot who looks and talks like an escapee from the local mong farm. Given that choice, I don’t think you can criticise anyone for the way they voted. Of course, you won’t understand this and that is why BJ will remain in number 10 for at least a decade.

You do make some leaps of imagination, quote a post of mine where I supported Diane Abbot?
There isn't a single one, and so how do you justify voting for a Home secretary who in your own words is dishonest?
You didn't have to vote for either, so you are indeed open to criticism.
As to BJ lasting even a five year term I wouldn't bank on that if I were you.

Just because the Turkeys voted for Christmas won't stop them getting stuffed

 

[50Hertz]

Do you eat meat?

I know where this is going. Yes, much to my shame, I do. I find the thought of animals being transported to a slaughterhouse distressing. I hope they aren’t frightened or suffer, but that’s probably wishful thinking. I should give up on meat.

 

[flecc]

"Middlesbrough, a port, has always had immigrant labour and, indeed, the town was built by Irish immigrants. Racial conflict is almost entirely absent. But local people are not happy that the town has recently become a dumping ground for economic migrants, or that the same migrants alter the culture of the place and undercut local wages.

This makes absolutely no sense.

You say there is no racial conflict and then say there is!

All imigration from other countries introduces other cultures. Tolerant people allow those other cultures to exist in parallel and often even enjoy them too.

Those who do not tolerate other cultures are by definition racist.

Your accusation of the migrants undercutting wages is almost funny. It's the market, the very thing you so strongly advocate!
.

 

[Danidl]

"Those who do not tolerate other cultures are by definition racist."
I think that is slightly OTT. One can accept the singer but not the song

 

[flecc]

I know where this is going. Yes, much to my shame, I do. I find the thought of animals being transported to a slaughterhouse distressing. I hope they aren’t frightened or suffer, but that’s probably wishful thinking. I should give up on meat.

No you shouldn't give up meat. Animals, and we are one, have always killed to eat, it is part of the natural order. Even herbivores kill innumerable small creatures as they graze or browse. We all even kill as we breathe since the air is full of virtually invisible miniscule life.

Most of that natural order killing is to our sensitivities unspeakably cruel, but in truth it isn't. It's been clearly shown that as an animal is being ripped open while still ostensibly alive, it goes into deep shock, a natural defence in which no pain is felt. Speak to front line emergency staff and they will tell you how that applies to humans too. When many are injured, it's the quiet ones in deep shock they worry about trying to keep alive first, since they know that those kicking up a lot of fuss and noise are going to be ok.

Despite this knowledge and since we are sensitive, we do our utmost not to stress animals unduly when they are taken to slaughter. We've taken this to the point where most small slaughterhouses have been shut down so that those remaining have a vet at every one to watch over animal welfare.

So by all means eat meat with a clear conscience in respect of cruelty. There is of course now an environmental aspect, methane production by red meat animals. Personally I take care of this by as far as possible eating wild venison (not farm reared). That actually helps the environment since it removes some of the naturally occurring methane producers as part of necessary humane culling

What is wrong is killing for the sake of it, not to eat and often for entertainment, such as hunting foxes. Long ago that had a legitimate place, but it no longer has now and many country people recognise it. Indeed the majority of farmers are opposed to any hunt entering their land and many have informed the remaining hunts that they must not.
.

 

[50Hertz]

No you shouldn't give up meat. Animals, and we are one, have always killed to eat, it is part of the natural order. Even herbivores kill innumerable small creatures as they graze or browse. We all even kill as we breathe since the air is full of virtually invisible miniscule life.

Most of that natural order killing is to our sensitivities unspeakably cruel, but in truth it isn't. It's been clearly shown that as an animal is being ripped open while still ostensibly alive, it goes into deep shock, a natural defence in which no pain is felt. Speak to front line emergency staff and they will tell you how that applies to humans too. When many are injured, it's the quiet ones in deep shock they worry about trying to keep alive first, since they know that those kicking up a lot of fuss and noise are going to be ok.

Despite this knowledge and since we are sensitive, we do our utmost not to stress animals unduly when they are taken to slaughter. We've taken this to the point where most small slaughterhouses have been shut down so that those remaining have a vet at every one to watch over animal welfare.

So by all means eat meat with a clear conscience in respect of cruelty. There is of course now an environmental aspect, methane production by red meat animals. Personally I take care of this by as far as possible eating wild venison (not farm reared). That actually helps the environment since it removes some of the naturally occurring methane producers as part of necessary humane culling

What is wrong is killing for the sake of it, not to eat and often for entertainment, such as hunting foxes. Long ago that had a legitimate place, but it no longer has now and many country people recognise it. Indeed the majority of farmers are opposed to any hunt entering their land and many have informed the remaining hunts that they must not.
.

Yes, some good points in there. I have often wondered about visiting a slaughterhouse. I‘m sure that I would find it distressing, but if I am going to eat meat, I feel somewhat morally bound to witness what it is that I am being an active part of.

I know that vets are resident in slaughterhouses and interestingly Brexit may have an impact on this. My cousin, who is a vet, tells me that virtually all slaughterhouse vets are EU migrants. They can’t get U.K. vets to work there for obvious reasons. He says that if the post Brexit situation causes shortage of EU vets, meat production could be severely disrupted.

 

[flecc]

I know that vets are resident in slaughterhouses and interestingly Brexit may have an impact on this. My cousin, who is a vet, tells me that virtually all slaughterhouse vets are EU migrants. They can’t get U.K. vets to work there for obvious reasons. He says that if the post Brexit situation causes shortage of EU vets, meat production could be severely disrupted.

Yes I can confirm that's true in many cases. We train plenty of vets, but their first choice is often to work in pet practices. Country farm vet practices are usually a second choice, slaughterhouses never really by choice. That isn't because of what goes on there, it's simply the boredom of the duties. Inspecting all the incoming animals for health, ensuring the humane killing procedures are adhered to but never doing any treatment work. It must be like watching paint dry.
.

 

[Danidl]

Yes, some good points in there. I have often wondered about visiting a slaughterhouse. I‘m sure that I would find it distressing, but if I am going to eat meat, I feel somewhat morally bound to witness what it is that I am being an active part of.

I know that vets are resident in slaughterhouses and interestingly Brexit may have an impact on this. My cousin, who is a vet, tells me that virtually all slaughterhouse vets are EU migrants. They can’t get U.K. vets to work there for obvious reasons. He says that if the post Brexit situation causes shortage of EU vets, meat production could be severely disrupted.

No. In a post EU situation, the UK can just do without vetinary inspections and live with the re-emergence of BSE, TB, hormone ridden beef etc. It is EU regulations..you know the unnecessary "red tape ",that prevents this . My home is in a coastal and semi rural area and prior to EU banning of Golden Dust ,the bellowing of the cattle in an adjacent fields was pitiful . As Joni Mitchell sang ," you don't know what your missing till its gone "

 

[flecc]

No. In a post EU situation, the UK can just do without vetinary inspections and live with the re-emergence of BSE, TB, hormone ridden beef etc. It is EU regulations..you know the unnecessary "red tape ",that prevents this . My home is in a coastal and semi rural area and prior to EU banning of Golden Dust ,the bellowing of the cattle in an adjacent fields was pitiful . As Joni Mitchell sang ," you don't know what your missing till its gone "

That's completely true, but I doubt the public would tolerate the return of most of that, they are better informed now than in the past.

The greatest danger is in possibly not getting a deal and conforming to US food standards. However I think that despite all Johnson's huffing and puffing, we'll probably just tamely sign up to whatever trade deal the EU offers us.
.

 

[Zlatan]

They will be rather upset when it turns out the government doesn't reduce the number of immigrants, won't they?
Did the number of people coming in reduce under the Conservatives?
Answer No they did not, so what was the point in voting for them, simply because they lied about their intentions?

Because there was no viable alternative.
40,117

 

[oldgroaner]

Because there was no viable alternative.
40,117

Not a good reason for condemning the country to a big mistake
80,100

 

[OxygenJames]

So they voted to protect the offshore tax accounts and damage their own prospects?
That won't last long when the situation doesn't look so rosy.
And your corny propaganda won't change that

Not a very good guess so no bonus point for you.

 

[50Hertz]

Yes it's going to the fact that we all do things for our own pleasure. You like the taste of meat. Me too. Some people like to go hunting. The moment you think you're morally superior to others is the moment you lose touch with our shared humanity. End of sermon.

I'd disagree that killing an animal for food is no different to killing an animal for titillation, or to derive pleasure from the act of killing it, which is what you seem to be saying.

 

[50Hertz]

Because there was no viable alternative.
40,117

That's the bit he can't grasp. There was / is no alternative to the Conservatives.

 

[OxygenJames]

That's the bit he can't grasp. There was / is no alternative to the Conservatives.

OG lives in a fantasy land. That way he can sit back and criticise - never having to take responsibility for making a decision.

He says voting Tory was a mistake - that this government is a mistake. But he does not consider what the alternative was - or if he does he has no clue about the economic or cultural consequences.

No - he does not have to consider what would have been the greater mistake - in his fantasy world he is right and everybody else is wrong.