Could someone please explain why ebike manufacturers are still not using LIFEPO4 batteries, even though they are vastly superior to the old fashion types.
Griz
Griz
Could someone please explain 3
- Thread starter Grizzly Bear
- Start date
lifepo4 lasts years maybe 10 years if looked after with a UK legal motor 250watt,
and will still have a good s/h resale price after 3 or 4 years, dealers what something that will need replacing every two to three years or so like lipo ebikes with next to no s/h resale without spending 500 pounds plus on a new battery which no one will do,in my opinion its all about money for the middle men (Dealers).
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Andy, me and you are on the same wave mate, cos that's what I figured, they're having them as mugs for sure! I'm on the A123 M1s myself, they are so under stressed in ebike application.
Griz
Griz
Some have been trying to use Lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO4). eZee suffered a higher than acceptable failure rate with them on trial from various manufacturers over a very long period, but have now tentatively brought in one as part of a second battery system.
The ten years life is only theory to date, not born out in practice so far as those who've bought early will probably find out before too long. Li Ping seems to be one of the more experienced suppliers but even he only claimed three years with moderate discharge rates and two years at high discharge rates. At his reasonable prices that's ok, but at e-bike manufacturer prices which include import duties, importing agent substantial margins and VAT on top of all that, the price becomes unacceptable and uncompetitive against li-polymer. That's why the latter is the current preferred choice.
The main battery manufacturers all say that Lithium iron phosphate is the way to go, but there is agreement that it's not ready yet in light e-bike form, needing both longer life and lower cost.
The much heavier car versions as used by the Chevrolet Volt and BYD cars are said to be ready now and claimed to be capable of giving a ten year life, but that type of massive construction would be unacceptably bulky and heavy on an e-bike.
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The ten years life is only theory to date, not born out in practice so far as those who've bought early will probably find out before too long. Li Ping seems to be one of the more experienced suppliers but even he only claimed three years with moderate discharge rates and two years at high discharge rates. At his reasonable prices that's ok, but at e-bike manufacturer prices which include import duties, importing agent substantial margins and VAT on top of all that, the price becomes unacceptable and uncompetitive against li-polymer. That's why the latter is the current preferred choice.
The main battery manufacturers all say that Lithium iron phosphate is the way to go, but there is agreement that it's not ready yet in light e-bike form, needing both longer life and lower cost.
The much heavier car versions as used by the Chevrolet Volt and BYD cars are said to be ready now and claimed to be capable of giving a ten year life, but that type of massive construction would be unacceptably bulky and heavy on an e-bike.
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Tony as you know I'm using the A123 M1 cells that I build into a battery pack. My battery pack can supply a constant 280 amps, and peak of 480 amps, what other battery of the same capacity can do that? We are pioneers, therefore we have to trust new technology and be brave enough to use it.
Agreed, but A123 were designed for power tools, a usage which is sometimes demanding but usually intermittent. E-bike demands are very different of course, so the life is still in question. I'm waiting to see, the jury is out as yet.
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I'm not the only one using them, and the RC boys have been giving them a right old hammering, they are the business I assure you. Building battery packs is a very time consuming process, but worth it.
You seem to be pushing these batteries very hard. Can you assure everyone that they will give the ten year life you say under constant use conditions on an e-bike?
Is so, there will be giving a ten year guarantee on them. Very brave and I'd buy them on that basis.
But has anyone been using them for 10 years on an e-bike? If not, how can they know?
Hi Lemmy
I don't sell the A123 batteries, but all you've got to do is google them to see how good they are, they have been out for some years with excellent results.
I am simply trying to educate people, I use them, I have found them to be brilliant, one 2.3 ah cell can supply 70 amps continuous 120 max. In ebike applications they are very very understressed, this results in a very long life. You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink mate!
Griz
In the couple of years I've been on here I've heard many claims about many different types of battery, many of them vapourware. I've also seen batteries that should work well fail in bulk, it's an expensive investment and one where many people will take the safest option.
A123 packs and LiFePO4 have both been spoken about favourably on here but I don't remember many people talking about long term test results.
I've seen some interesting threads about batteries but only two really stick in my mind as expert knowledge. One where Wisper gave reasons for the battery choice from a company that makes all types and another where a member was trying to source batteries for a product and illustrated what a minefield it is trying to get a decent battery from China and what huge differences in quality there are.
If I was going to build a bike with a bespoke battery pack I'd use A123 cells but for me the bike is my main form of transport to get to work on and I'd rather not experiment with it.
A123 packs and LiFePO4 have both been spoken about favourably on here but I don't remember many people talking about long term test results.
I've seen some interesting threads about batteries but only two really stick in my mind as expert knowledge. One where Wisper gave reasons for the battery choice from a company that makes all types and another where a member was trying to source batteries for a product and illustrated what a minefield it is trying to get a decent battery from China and what huge differences in quality there are.
If I was going to build a bike with a bespoke battery pack I'd use A123 cells but for me the bike is my main form of transport to get to work on and I'd rather not experiment with it.
My first lifepo4 is now 2 years old, it is a Ping V1, not the best battery by a long way, and no where near as good as A123. I used it for a year with a V2 Puma motor and did about 3000 miles with it. It is still working but I have re-configured it into a 12 volt 60 Ah battery, which I use to power my electric outboard engine and as a portable 12 volt supply for my inverter. How long must they be used before people except that they are the best chemistry? I've got a little 36 volt 10Ah V2.5 Ping that I used with a Crystalyte X5 drawing over 75 amps on start up, now on my little runaround, that's over a year old and still performing like new!
You are all going to be in your 90s and saying "those lifepo4, they're not going to last, better stick to the tried and tested lithium ion"! I assume you're not all still on those lead acid batteries are you?
Griz
You are all going to be in your 90s and saying "those lifepo4, they're not going to last, better stick to the tried and tested lithium ion"! I assume you're not all still on those lead acid batteries are you?
Griz
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You are not the only one, there are several owners at around two years with Ping batteries, but I for one have never argued that they won't do that, indeed I trust Ping when he says three years is possible.
But that's a long way short of the ten year life so liberally claimed by some.
If there are some still in use approaching ten years and still with usable ranges. I'll accept they can do it. I've never said they won't, but having seen every battery type fail to live up to claims over the years, it's sensible to be cautious and not blindly swallow the hype.
E-bike manfacturers are not daft, they hate warranty claims and their associated costs and bad reputation gained. If there were proven better types that lasted three years or more at acceptable costs they'd use them, and they have their eye on doing so when they feel it's safe to do so. Up until now both they and their top battery manufacturers (Advance, Lishen and Phylion) have not thought the technologies sound enough yet.
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I've never seen that sort of thing stop any Chinese company.
I'll still wait for the ten years to see if the claims are right, though I'd be happy to use them meanwhile with somewhat shorter life of course.
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You're not wrong Tony!I've never seen that sort of thing stop any Chinese company.
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