Enclosing gear cabling

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
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Been working with bike-bags.co.uk this afternoon at triangle bag design for my frame. One thing which we are both agreed on is that if possible it would be best to use a single long velcro flap to secure the bag along the tube running horizontally from seat post to front stem.

Slight complication I have is that there are 2 large mouldings (cable guides) along this length and in between these the gear cables are exposed and not housed. Wrapping bag attachment flaps below the cables seated in the housing likely to result in cable rub. This could wear the cables, or the bag, or both over time. Wrapping the bag fixing flaps above might put pressure on the cables and interfere with their operation.

Most logical thing to my mind would be to simply house the cables. That way cable movement inside them would be protected and no chance of cumulative damage to fabric. Can anyone tell me if this is OK to do for this sort of gear cable setup and whether it's a simple job to house the cables ?

Looking down on the moulding ...

20130125_175959[1].jpg
 

Old_Dave

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 15, 2012
1,211
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Dumfries & Galloway
No problemo

Get a length of outer & inner cable ( get the inner just in case, lol) and some ends... Cable size for gears are normally different from brakes.


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103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
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Excellent news ... bag plan just got a whole lot easier :).

The cables are housed from the shifters up to the cable guide mouldings on that tube, then exposed between them, housed again up to more moulings on front seatpost tube (for front derailleur) and hardtail (for rear), yet another section of exposed cable between those and finally housed up to front and rear derailleurs.

It does puzzle me why they're like that - is it a design thing or something ? Am I likely best to strip, house and refix the whole length of cable ?
 

Old_Dave

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 15, 2012
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Dumfries & Galloway
Yes it's an assthic thing so that dirt and water can get into the cable, lol



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103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
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Stripped down bike look - flashing a bit of cable and exposing your innards with pride. It's clearly what people demanded on a £1500 mountain bike in 2006 ;). There's little logic in fashion !
 

wurly

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 2, 2008
501
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Yeovil, Somerset
I think they're designed like that to reduce movement that you would see with a full length outer cable, therefore a more solid feel to the brakes and better selection for gears. A good idea covering them though. I might have to do that on mine.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Lighter weight, maybe cheaper and less friction, but to me, hardly worth it.

You could go down to Wilkinsons and buy a couple of their gear or brake cables (they're very cheap). Pull off the outer and cut a piece the same length or a bit shorter than the length of the exposed cables. Unfortunately, you'll have to undo the cable from the derailleurs and thread it through, which'll mean that you have to reset all your gears,which can be a bit tricky. I think that it might be better to leave the cables bare. There won't be much pressure on them because the weight will pull the bag tube downwards. As long as you allow for them on the tightness of the bag tube/flap, I think it'll be OK.
 

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
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^^ Those were my initial thoughs and might just try that way for a bit. The work is all in resetting the gears - figured if I was going to have to do that may as well replace the cables when installing the housing so everything good as new ... and then thought about upgrading the shifters too at the same time ... and while we're at it new derailleurs are on special offer .... and so it goes on !

Probably best to just fit the bag and see whether all works OK then fit cable housing if necessary and there is cable rubbing on the velcro / proper gear functioning is impeded. I need to ride the bike a bit more unpowered to get a proper handle on how well the gears are working anyway as a benchmark ... all shifting was fine when I had the bike on a stand but I have had some shifts not working well out on the road. Was in heavy traffic concentrating on staying alive so unfortunately can't remember which combos gave problems.

Is chain tension as important on a derailleur system as a hub gear one ? If my chain gets slack on the other bike the gears slip and wondering if it's the same on this one.
 
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catsnapper

Pedelecer
Is chain tension as important on a derailleur system as a hub gear one ? If my chain gets slack on the other bike the gears slip and wondering if it's the same on this one.
The chain needs to be long enough to engage bottom gear on the cassette, while on the biggest chainring(in theory!) with enough slack to make the change smooth. Any longer is too long:)
As always, there is plenty on the SB site and elswhere on the best way of doing it.

Re open cables....Frame flex can cause screwed up gear changes, especially if the cable is routed via the downtube and BB. Alfines have been know to change gear on their own by frame flex while offroading.:confused:

I've had gearshift problems with open cable while experimenting with a battery bag on the top tube. Total weight was under 3Kg, but changes up got clunky on several occasions. May well depend on the design of bag and the fabric.

Alan
 
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103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
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The chain needs to be long enough to engage bottom gear on the cassette, while on the biggest chainring(in theory!) with enough slack to make the change smooth. Any longer is too long:)
As always, there is plenty on the SB site and elswhere on the best way of doing it.
It's probably right - was installed by a bike shop for the guy I bought it off .... just didn't know if you could change / tweak the tension of a fixed length chain. Without looking into it, I'm guessing probably not !

Re open cables....Frame flex can cause screwed up gear changes, especially if the cable is routed via the downtube and BB. Alfines have been know to change gear on their own by frame flex while offroading.:confused:
Interesting. Cable routed via top tube on the MTB (but that's derailleur) and the bike with Alfine they are internally routed inside the downtube (it's a Step-through). The frame on that one is very heavy duty though and it isn't suitable for any real off-roading. I'd guess that if there is flex in the frame it would most likely happen with consequence for gears at the rear axle. Equally possible is that the wheel in those cases wasn't secured back in to the dropouts tightly enough ! This might lead to slight movement of the axle in the dropouts.

My own experience has been that with horizontal dropouts (and freewheel in chainwheel), insufficient torque on the nuts can cause slight wheel slippage which in turn leads to loss of chain tension. This has a huge effect on the hub gear tuning and always leads to slippage. I struggled for ages to work out the source of gear slip but having worked out how to get the wheel really well aligned and secured, and the chain tight, the gears have miraculously behaved themselves perfectly ever since (touch wood !). It's a finely tuned system but one which seems to work very well when set up as intended.

I've had gearshift problems with open cable while experimenting with a battery bag on the top tube. Total weight was under 3Kg, but changes up got clunky on several occasions. May well depend on the design of bag and the fabric.
This one would look a bit like this - albeit made for a hardtail triangle and not a full-sus :

Bike Bag Main Options Page

You can see the attachment flap at the top of the bag. This would be velcro sewn under 1000d Cordura to match the rest of the bag. In the context of the OP photo above this flap would be wrapping around the top tube over the exposed gear cables running along the tube between the moulded guides. The material is almost certainly too thick to go under them. My logic concludes that this will compress the exposed cables down to the frame and put pressure on them. Given that the cables move back and forth as gears are shifted up and down, this must surely result in their efficient operation being impeded (or at the very least some friction) unless the wires are enclosed within a more rigid sheath that they move inside. However, maybe I am incorrect in my preliminary logical analysis ;) It's hard to be sure without having something to actually try.

On weight, the total of bag + contents likely about 6-7kg. The weight of the bag contents will be taken mainly on the seat post tube / down tube (it will house battery and controller etc). But to get a strong and stable fit I'm pretty sure the top flap would need to be tightly closed and be subject to both downward and lateral tension. The bag width immediately under the top tube would be 3.5" min., so to wrap flaps of that width securely over the top of the tube would most likely compress a wire located there to the frame (but probably not compress a cable routing housing enough to interfere with a wire cable shifting inside it). Hence thinking I need to house the currently exposed wires ! Hard to explain but hope that makes sense !
 
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catsnapper

Pedelecer
Hence thinking I need to house the currently exposed wires ! Hard to explain but hope that makes sense !
I run both 8 and 11spd Alfines, the 8 seems the sturdier, less fussy unit. With horizontal dropouts I use a chaintug on the drive side to stop horizontal movement. It involves some minor modding, but works well.
With vertical dropouts I use an eccentric BB to replace the standard BB, so I can tension the chain with that instead of using a chain tensioner.
It makes a good combination as the wheel drops out easily after unhooking the cable, with no worries about retensioning the chain.

Enclosing the exposed cable isn't too difficult, nothing other than the cable is being disturbed on the gear changing system. As long as the upper and lower limit stops and tension adjuster are left alone adjusting the cable once it's all rethreaded is straightforward.

I doubt that the weight of the bag would distort a gear or brake cable outer, so it makes sense to fully enclose the cables.

I have a few hundred metres of brake and gear cable outers, plus endless offcuts, so if you want to try doing it, let me know the exact lengths you need. I can then cut them and post them to you.

Alan
 

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
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I run both 8 and 11spd Alfines, the 8 seems the sturdier, less fussy unit.
I think it's mainly because the extra 3 gears are squeezed on to the same sized spline within the unit (only got a vague idea of how it works as never opened one up). I guess everything comes at a price !

With horizontal dropouts I use a chaintug on the drive side to stop horizontal movement. It involves some minor modding, but works well.
I'll keep an eye on how it runs from now - but this seems like a clever fix if the problem is recurring rather than simply down to inadequate tensioning.

Enclosing the exposed cable isn't too difficult, nothing other than the cable is being disturbed on the gear changing system. As long as the upper and lower limit stops and tension adjuster are left alone adjusting the cable once it's all rethreaded is straightforward.

I doubt that the weight of the bag would distort a gear or brake cable outer, so it makes sense to fully enclose the cables.

I have a few hundred metres of brake and gear cable outers, plus endless offcuts, so if you want to try doing it, let me know the exact lengths you need. I can then cut them and post them to you.

Alan
Many thanks that's very kind - I will take you up on this ... staves off acquiring cutting tool for a bit too :). Is there only one housing (outer) for the wire cable or does it thread through another thinner tube which sits inside the outer tube ? I saw a short piece of thinner tubing loose on the gear cable (wire) on one of the rear stay sections and wondered what it was and whether it was meant to be there !

My brakes are hydraulic and other than inserting a switch into the line of the rear one leading to the controller, they should be fine (I think), as the hydraulic brake cables are pretty robust.
 
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103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
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Loose liner almost certainly then. Wasn't sure if the outers were lined - I know now. Will get measuring when I get home :). Ball of string hunt on the way !