End of Expensive Electric Bikes?

[georgesign]

As a newcomer to the Forum and living in France I'm amazed how expensive some bikes and kits are. I have tried a kit and it was a complete disaster so I am now looking for a complete bike. The local electric bike shop is selling the Flyer and Matra using BionX but these are over Euros 2000. Recently I went into Carrefour the big supermarket chain and they are now selling an electric bike with gears for Euros 199. Yes it's true Euros 199. The bike is GREENCITYBIKE - GREENCITYBIKE. I have no idea how good it is but at that price I could buy 10 for one Flyer. Makes you think that the Electric bike market is way over-priced,

 

[carpetbagger]

MADRID 36V





Partie cycle Chassis Cadre Frame Acier Steel
Fourche Fork Acier Steel
Guidon Handlebar Acier Steel
Potence de guidon Handlebar Stems Acier / Aluminium Steel / Aluminum
Pédalier Crank Acier inoxydable Stainless Steel
Pédale Pedal Plastique Plastic
Protège chaîne Protects chain Plastique Plastic
Garde-boue Fenders Plastique Plastic
Tige de selle Seatpost Aluminium Aluminum
Support de garde-boue Support mudguards UCP UCP
Freinage / Liaison au sol Braking / Ground Connection Frein avant Front brake V-Brake Aluminium Aluminum V-Brake
Frein arrière Rear Brake V-Brake Aluminium Aluminum V-Brake
Levier de frein Levers Aluminium Aluminum
Jante Rim Aluminium Aluminum
Moyeu avant Front Hub Acier Steel
Rayon Radius Acier / Zn Peint Steel / Painted Zn
Pneu Tires Kenda 26x1.75 Kenda 26x1.75
Assistance / Transmission Support / Transmission Sélecteur de vitesse Gear Shimano RS31-6 ou RS36-6 Shimano RS31-6 or RS36-6
Dérailleur arrière Rear derailleur Shimano TY-18 Shimano TY-18
Ratio d'assistance Support Ratio 1 : 1.5 1: 1.5
Moteur électrique Engine Electrical Moteur brushless 36V 250W Brushless 36V 250W
Batterie Drums Plomb à l'acide 36V 8Ah Lead-acid 36V 8Ah
Autonomie par charge Range per charge ± 35km ± 35km
Temps de charge Charging time Entre 7 et 8 heures Between 7 and 8 hours
Cycle de vie de la batterie Life cycle of the battery ≥ 300 cycles ≥ 300 cycles
Divers Miscellaneous Lumière Light Dynamo standard Dynamo standard
Poids net Net weight 33.5kg 33.5kg
Charge maximum Maximum Load 125kg 125kg
Coloris Colors Noir / Argent Black / Silver



if you look at the specification compared with a flyer/agattu/wisper its not in the same league. Steel frame, lead acid battery and not a high capacity one at that..You get what you pay for.If it meets your own personal needs then its fine but its not really comparable to the bikes you have quoted.

 

[carpetbagger]

they also do an unpowered folder with 5/6 gears (difficult to tell from pictures) that weighs 14.5kg...great for converting for interested parties...for 149 euros on-line

 

[georgesign]

That is very true but you can buy it with a better battery. I think you miss the point though. It is like saying you can't compare a Rolls Royce with a VW Golf. The fact is a VW is just as reliable. Takes you just as far. Is comfortable and does the job. The only difference is the R.R has more luxury and is way more expensive. When I compare an electric bike to a good quality normal bike the difference in price is massive. I just get the feeling that electric bikes are following the same curve as Flat Screen TVs. When they first came out they were horrendously expensive. Now they almost give them away. Don't you think that with a Euro 199 bike hitting the streets the price of the more expensive bikes will fall dramatically?

 

[georgesign]

Just as an added point of interest. There is a factory in France producing the petrol motor VeloSolex again. It's now called the Black n Roll. This sells for Euros 1000. The owner informs me that in November they are bringing out a version, with not only the petrol engine, but with an electric hub motor added to it plus a 36V LioN battery. The petrol motor also charges the battery. This will sell for under Euros 1500.

 

[carpetbagger]

It won't bring prices down because the other bikes have far better performance and components. They brought out the Tata car but prices haven't dropped for other makes because of it. They are in a different market.
Don't get me wrong,if it meets you needs and its relaiable then fine. Until 2 weeks ago i rode a Powabyke with lead acid battery,its heavy with no suspension...but it did its job and got me about....My Agattu on the other hand is on a different planet,extremely comfortable and easy to ride with a lot better components.
The best ebike is the one you can afford at that moment in time,then once your hooked you seek out something better.

 

[eddieo]

But these bikes are fine for retired folk to get around on locally.....I saw loads of old chaps on generic Chinese e bikes in Italy this summer.

 

[tillson]

That is very true but you can buy it with a better battery. I think you miss the point though. It is like saying you can't compare a Rolls Royce with a VW Golf. The fact is a VW is just as reliable. Takes you just as far. Is comfortable and does the job. The only difference is the R.R has more luxury and is way more expensive. When I compare an electric bike to a good quality normal bike the difference in price is massive. I just get the feeling that electric bikes are following the same curve as Flat Screen TVs. When they first came out they were horrendously expensive. Now they almost give them away. Don't you think that with a Euro 199 bike hitting the streets the price of the more expensive bikes will fall dramatically?

I don't think the Rolls Royce VW Golf analogy works. It isn't just that the expensive bikes are more comfortable, you are paying for quality components which makes for a more durable machine with a better service life.

I don't know anything about the bikes you have quoted, but having looked at the spec sheet, I don't think it would stand up to the daily, all seasons, commute that I currently use my bike for. I may be wrong, but I wouldn't risk it.

As someone has already said, if you just want it for very light occasional use, it may be fine, but it can't be compared to a higher spec more expensive model. They aren't the same thing.

Edit:

and I don't think that 8 Ah lead acid battery will take you as far as the 10 Ah Panasonic Battery or the huge Wisper battery.

 

[georgesign]

OK I take your point about VW and RR but what about my point regarding Flat Screen TVs. I just don't want to fork out over Euros 2000 for a bike when suddenly the mass market takes off and I find I can buy the same thing for a quarter of the price. The fact that these bikes are beginning to appear in the large supermarkets seems to me to be the beginning of this trend. I also noticed that you can buy an electric bike from Decathlon for Euros 999. This has all the knobs and whistles. I just feel, as a novice, that the electric bike industry is at the moment a "cottage industry". I should imagine that once Kalkhoff see the trend and are buying in thousands of Panasonic motors and batteries the price of your expensive luxury item will tumble. You are already starting to see the competition on the Internet. Incidentally, the man from Black n Roll (see above) tells me that as soon as he sticks the electric motor on his hybrid then most of the extra cost will be refunded by the local authorities in the tax.

 

[flecc]

Just ride the two types Georgesign, that will immediately tell you all you need to know about the pricing difference. Yes, a Lada or a VeloSolex will do the job after a fashion, but who wants to use crude technology from many decades ago? Very, very few in fact. Apart from anything else, the Velosolex designed in the 1940s was always a horrible thing which had very poor hill climbing performance even in it's day, and I say that as someone from the trade in the 1950s who knows only too well what they are like.

Some of the pricing problem with e-bikes results from the necessity to add costs and margins by percentages, so a moderate price difference accounted for by the quality difference at the factory gate expands considerably as every item is added. Things like producer margin, transit insurance, import duties, retailer margin and VAT, of necessity applied as percentages, all expand the difference substantially. There's also design costs at source, cheap e-bikes we call "parts bin" jobs since they are made up of standard items often of old technology thrown together with no quality control. By contrast, motor units like the Panasonic, Yamaha, Sunstar and latest form of the Suzhou Bafang have been designed from scratch and that costs money which has to be recovered. The same is true of battery technology, over a decade of intensive research had gone into lithium batteries to bring them to their present stage and that expensive research is still ongoing. Lead acid batteries by contrast are 19th century technology in the 21st century with virtually no design costs involved.

For margin reasons there are even substantial differences for similar products as illustrated by the car market, just look at the price difference between the top and bottom of any car model range. A model can vary from circa £13,000 to £20,000 for basically the same car with some upgrades incorporated, trim, engine, paint etc.

Your Rolls Royce comparison isn't correct, the likes of the £4000 BikeTech Flyers and the £8000 Optibike are the Rolls Royces of the e-bike market, the ones you are critical of are merely the mid market bikes priced accordingly and I wonder if you have looked in bike shops at the prices of good unpowered bikes. Here in the UK my local bike shop has a number of unpowered normal bikes priced between £1000 and £2000, so the typical good quality e-bike at between £1300 and £1800 here is far from overpriced in comparison.

You have the option of buying the cheap old tech low quality job if you want to, leaving those who want better to have their option too. That's how any consumer market should be, the widest choice possible to please all requirements.

N.B. Crossed with Tillson's post.
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[georgesign]

This is what I was waiting for, a reasoned argument, rather than "enthusiasts" argument. It makes a lot of sense regarding the differentials in pricing and quality. So as I may be parting with a substantial amount of money for a Flyer unless of course you tell me the Kalkhoff or an Emotion is better. The guy in the Bike shop here tells me that although the Flyer and Gitane bikes use the same engine there is something about the controller that makes the Flyer superior. Just to show how the French are with rules and regulations and when to ignore them. Velectris will produce for the customer any configuration they want (purely for off-road of course). I was offered a bike with a Super Phantom X engine plus a 48V 400 W controller and 48V . 10 Amp battery system, but advised me to stay away from the Radar points (tongue in cheek).

 

[flecc]

So as I may be parting with a substantial amount of money for a Flyer unless of course you tell me the Kalkhoff or an Emotion is better. The guy in the Bike shop here tells me that although the Flyer and Gitane bikes use the same engine there is something about the controller that makes the Flyer superior.

The Panasonic unit with it's integrated controller is fundamentally the same for all makes, but there are minor differences in the way it's set up in the software. The Flyers have the high speed unit that's used on the "S" and THS series and the slightly higher power on their premium models, but Kalkhoff also have the higher powered and the faster versions options on their Pro Connect and Pro Connect S models respectively. Otherwise I don't think the unit differences matter much against any preferences on the bike models, if an Emotion or Kalkhoff model appeals it will be a good buy. Check out the items fitted on a model though, for example some Kalkhoff and Flyer models have very desirable items like Magura hydraulic brakes fitted as standard. When all's said though, the better BikeTech Flyers are in a class of their own for quality.
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