Fantastic battery?!

John F

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 3, 2013
435
55
Just bought a new bike with a 17amp Panasonic battery. Previous bike had a 15 amp battery which performed as I expected.

So far done 46 miles and only gone down one bar out of five (20%) I estimate say 30% down. That would mean something like 140 miles total range which can't be right? The meter is a King meter KM529LCD

Usage so far: mid power setting. Cruising speed mainly on flat roads (York) in fairly calm conditions. My weight is 88kg

I conclude that my battery is fantastic or the meter is misleading me?

Any thoughts?
 
D

Deleted member 25121

Guest
Just bought a new bike with a 17amp Panasonic battery. Previous bike had a 15 amp battery which performed as I expected.

So far done 46 miles and only gone down one bar out of five (20%) I estimate say 30% down. That would mean something like 140 miles total range which can't be right? The meter is a King meter KM529LCD

Usage so far: mid power setting. Cruising speed mainly on flat roads (York) in fairly calm conditions. My weight is 88kg

I conclude that my battery is fantastic or the meter is misleading me?

Any thoughts?
You'll have a better idea of its range after you've done some more miles....
 

Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
2,214
562
77
Just bought a new bike with a 17amp Panasonic battery. Previous bike had a 15 amp battery which performed as I expected.

So far done 46 miles and only gone down one bar out of five (20%) I estimate say 30% down. That would mean something like 140 miles total range which can't be right? The meter is a King meter KM529LCD

Usage so far: mid power setting. Cruising speed mainly on flat roads (York) in fairly calm conditions. My weight is 88kg

I conclude that my battery is fantastic or the meter is misleading me?

Any thoughts?
I personally like Panasonic cells in my battery, (just by luck) I have never had anything else, or seen anything better.
Also, when going from a smaller to a larger capacity battery, of course the larger one (naturally!) has more capacity, its a simple given, as you know, or you wouldnever have bought one!
Also, the SOC will "vary less" because of that, which makes the bike I feel, "nicer" to ride IMHO, no cutting out on hills with a nearly empty battery....
Maybe some SOC meters are a bit "fooled" by that (a design problem possibly!), and possibly indicate far more capacity than they should?
The only way to find out is to go out there and empty the battery!
Then let us know your results!
Enjoy the new Panasonic battery! :) :) :);)
Andy
 

John F

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 3, 2013
435
55
I personally like Panasonic cells in my battery, (just by luck) I have never had anything else, or seen anything better.
Also, when going from a smaller to a larger capacity battery, of course the larger one (naturally!) has more capacity, its a simple given, as you know, or you wouldnever have bought one!
Also, the SOC will "vary less" because of that, which makes the bike I feel, "nicer" to ride IMHO, no cutting out on hills with a nearly empty battery....
Maybe some SOC meters are a bit "fooled" by that (a design problem possibly!), and possibly indicate far more capacity than they should?
The only way to find out is to go out there and empty the battery!
Then let us know your results!
Enjoy the new Panasonic battery! :) :) :);)
Andy
Sorry SOC ?
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
3,986
Basildon
You can't go by the meter on any electric bike, though some are better than others. On your bike, all it is is a voltmeter and it goes down with the battery voltage. The battery voltage always accelerated downwards as you use up the battery because you are using watt-hours of energy. When the battery is full, you have 42v and when it's empty, you have 31 v, so you only get 75% as many watt-hours per volt when its empty. Also, as lithium battery discharges, it follows a more or less flat ramp-down line until around 35V, then it accelerates downwards.

The end result is that your last two segments will disappear a lot quicker than the first two. the only way you can monitor your range is with a wattmeter, though when you've run your battery right down a couple of times, you'll get an idea of how your meter behaves to get a good idea of how far you can go.
 

Danidl

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2016
8,610
12,256
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Ireland
You can't go by the meter on any electric bike, though some are better than others. On your bike, all it is is a voltmeter and it goes down with the battery voltage. The battery voltage always accelerated downwards as you use up the battery because you are using watt-hours of energy. When the battery is full, you have 42v and when it's empty, you have 31 v, so you only get 75% as many watt-hours per volt when its empty. Also, as lithium battery discharges, it follows a more or less flat ramp-down line until around 35V, then it accelerates downwards.

The end result is that your last two segments will disappear a lot quicker than the first two. the only way you can monitor your range is with a wattmeter, though when you've run your battery right down a couple of times, you'll get an idea of how your meter behaves to get a good idea of how far you can go.
I suspect that the Bosch system is a little more sophisticated than a simple voltmeter. They are monitoring the current, so measuring the charge consumption with a microcontroller is easy. I know that your comments refer to a different brand, ..but ,just putting in a word for the higher priced system
 

sjpt

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 8, 2018
3,672
2,674
Winchester
Does anybody know what the voltages are for the various battery charge steps on the KM529LCD?

That, together with the results vfr400 posted before (https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/is-the-extra-5-amps-chewing-up-my-range.35664/#post-520066) should really help interpret the meaning of the battery meter.

I agree the Bosch is more sophisticated and feels more reliable. (Shame it can't give more sensible readings for range remaining as well, by basing it on a longer history). We have Bosch on our solo and KM529 on our tandem.
 

Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
2,214
562
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"State Of Charge", sorry, I should have mentioned it.....
Andy
I looked around on the IoT for you, and I am hoping this may help your understanding, as it appears to be fairly accurate:-
It is important to note that all Li-ion cells, including the Li-ion cells contained in our Mobile Power Centers, are sensitive to voltage. A Prolonged low voltage condition within a Li-ion cell may cause the dissolution of metals (principally copper). Copper dissolves into the electrolyte solution at open circuit voltages below ~0.7 volts. This dissolved copper is re-plated within the cell upon subsequent charging and can cause undesirable effects and almost certainly will compromise cell performance (e.g. low capacity, poor cycle life, high self-discharge).



Similarly, high voltage can also cause the degradation of Li-ion cells, especially at elevated temperature. When a Li-ion battery is plugged into a charger, charging continues along a prescribed path until a state of charge ("SOC") of 100% is sensed by the circuitry. The charging is then terminated and the battery is allowed to very slowly discharge. It is detrimental to the cells to be kept at 98-100% SOC for prolonged periods of time (i.e. more than 10 days). This is why many cells are allowed to discharge to around 95% SOC or less before charging is re-initiated, even while connected to a charger.

The nature of Li-ion cells is such that the relationship between state of charge ("SOC") and voltage is fairly flat throughout much of the cell’s discharge range. A typical discharge voltage curve is shown below:-
Li-ion Discharge Voltage Curve Typical.jpg
The rapid fall of voltage at the end of the discharge cycle provides a relatively accurate means of determining when energy will run out. However, this also means that the SOC drops much more rapidly and can lead to an over-discharged condition if the cell or battery is left to sit for prolonged periods at a low SOC. This is due to the fact that Li-ion cells have an inherent self-discharge rate independent of any circuit load. This self-discharge rate is quite low at room temperatures around 20-25°C or less. Values of around 2% per month are typical. However, this rate can more than double when cells are exposed to high temperatures. Furthermore, ambient temperature can have a profound effect on the discharge voltage curve and must be considered during transportation and storage when the cells may be exposed to extreme high or low temperatures.

Well designed electronics will keep the cell(s) at somewhere between 4.2 and just under 3 volts. This is the safe "working area" for a Li-ion cell.
You can see that the battery discharges faster as it gets to the end of the charge. Just what you are noticing.
Multiply these single cell voltages by the number of cells in series in your battery.
For example, a 36 volt (nominal) battery, will have 10 blocks of series connected cells (number of cells in a block, connected in parallel is variable due to capacity and current design requirements!).
Never leave a discharged battery to its own devices for months, as the safety electronics can and will prevent further charging, and only a "Zer0 Volt Charger" MIGHT recover it, but damage will have been done.
Any questions, just ask please.
Andy
 

sjpt

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 8, 2018
3,672
2,674
Winchester
That graph is even flatter along the main segment than the ones vfr400 posted before. It really shows why a voltage based charge meter is so inadequate.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
19,525
16,463
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
Just bought a new bike with a 17amp Panasonic battery. Previous bike had a 15 amp battery which performed as I expected.

So far done 46 miles and only gone down one bar out of five (20%) I estimate say 30% down. That would mean something like 140 miles total range which can't be right? The meter is a King meter KM529LCD

Usage so far: mid power setting. Cruising speed mainly on flat roads (York) in fairly calm conditions. My weight is 88kg

I conclude that my battery is fantastic or the meter is misleading me?

Any thoughts?
The battery is good and the new bike is economical on battery but you need to check the battery's voltage with a multitester to be sure.
The battery capacity is 17.5AH * 36V = 630WH
When the battery is full, it should show 41.5V, totally flat: 31.5V. Each Volt corresponds to 10% of the charge.
After 46 miles, the battery should show about 35V or 35% remaining.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
19,525
16,463
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
I looked around on the IoT for you, and I am hoping this may help your understanding, as it appears to be fairly accurate:-
https://siliconlightworks.com/li-ion-voltage
that graph is not relevant.
John's battery is made with top grade Panasonic 18650B (3500mAH instead of 3400mAH).
Here is the discharge characteristic of this cell. For the battery, simply multiply the horizontal capacity scale by 5, vertical scale by 10, the pack is made of 10S5P array.



 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
7,845
5,785
The European Union
Just bought a new bike with a 17amp Panasonic battery. Previous bike had a 15 amp battery which performed as I expected.

So far done 46 miles and only gone down one bar out of five (20%) I estimate say 30% down. That would mean something like 140 miles total range which can't be right? The meter is a King meter KM529LCD

Usage so far: mid power setting. Cruising speed mainly on flat roads (York) in fairly calm conditions. My weight is 88kg

I conclude that my battery is fantastic or the meter is misleading me?

Any thoughts?
In those conditions I would be doing just around the cut off speed so probably using about 1/3 the average Wh I get on hilly terrain (7.5 Wh/km)

So yes, your range estimation is correct in those conditions. Try an alpine pass and you you would probably get a quarter of that range...
 

John F

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 3, 2013
435
55
Interesting stuff thanks everyone. Two further questions before my brain packs in from overload.

1) If the meter is simply a volt meter, and the voltage drops steadily from fully charge, then why do I have to ride 30 miles before it stops saying "FULL"?
2) If I knew ny Wh/mile figure, would that be a way of getting a reasonable idea of range? If so does anyone have some idea of how to calculate my Wh/mile figure?

Cheers and goodnight
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
3,986
Basildon
I suspect that the Bosch system is a little more sophisticated than a simple voltmeter. They are monitoring the current, so measuring the charge consumption with a microcontroller is easy. I know that your comments refer to a different brand, ..but ,just putting in a word for the higher priced system
I said that his bike's battery meter was a simple voltmeter. I never mentioned Bosch and he doesn't have a Bosch because he has a 17ah Panasonic battery. Bosch is equally meaningless, but in a different way.
 
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vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
3,986
Basildon
I looked around on the IoT for you, and I am hoping this may help your understanding, as it appears to be fairly accurate:-
It is important to note that all Li-ion cells, including the Li-ion cells contained in our Mobile Power Centers, are sensitive to voltage. A Prolonged low voltage condition within a Li-ion cell may cause the dissolution of metals (principally copper). Copper dissolves into the electrolyte solution at open circuit voltages below ~0.7 volts. This dissolved copper is re-plated within the cell upon subsequent charging and can cause undesirable effects and almost certainly will compromise cell performance (e.g. low capacity, poor cycle life, high self-discharge).



Similarly, high voltage can also cause the degradation of Li-ion cells, especially at elevated temperature. When a Li-ion battery is plugged into a charger, charging continues along a prescribed path until a state of charge ("SOC") of 100% is sensed by the circuitry. The charging is then terminated and the battery is allowed to very slowly discharge. It is detrimental to the cells to be kept at 98-100% SOC for prolonged periods of time (i.e. more than 10 days). This is why many cells are allowed to discharge to around 95% SOC or less before charging is re-initiated, even while connected to a charger.

The nature of Li-ion cells is such that the relationship between state of charge ("SOC") and voltage is fairly flat throughout much of the cell’s discharge range. A typical discharge voltage curve is shown below:-
View attachment 32172
The rapid fall of voltage at the end of the discharge cycle provides a relatively accurate means of determining when energy will run out. However, this also means that the SOC drops much more rapidly and can lead to an over-discharged condition if the cell or battery is left to sit for prolonged periods at a low SOC. This is due to the fact that Li-ion cells have an inherent self-discharge rate independent of any circuit load. This self-discharge rate is quite low at room temperatures around 20-25°C or less. Values of around 2% per month are typical. However, this rate can more than double when cells are exposed to high temperatures. Furthermore, ambient temperature can have a profound effect on the discharge voltage curve and must be considered during transportation and storage when the cells may be exposed to extreme high or low temperatures.

Well designed electronics will keep the cell(s) at somewhere between 4.2 and just under 3 volts. This is the safe "working area" for a Li-ion cell.
You can see that the battery discharges faster as it gets to the end of the charge. Just what you are noticing.
Multiply these single cell voltages by the number of cells in series in your battery.
For example, a 36 volt (nominal) battery, will have 10 blocks of series connected cells (number of cells in a block, connected in parallel is variable due to capacity and current design requirements!).
Never leave a discharged battery to its own devices for months, as the safety electronics can and will prevent further charging, and only a "Zer0 Volt Charger" MIGHT recover it, but damage will have been done.
Any questions, just ask please.
Andy
I don't know where that guy got that graph from, but it certainly doesn't represent the type of lithium cells we get in our batteries. It looks like a LiFePO4 one superimposed on normal Li-Iion battery scales.
 

Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
2,214
562
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I don't know where that guy got that graph from, but it certainly doesn't represent the type of lithium cells we get in our batteries. It looks like a LiFePO4 one superimposed on normal Li-Iion battery scales.
They do make and sell cells and batteries, so they should know quite well what they are doing.
Anyway, IMHO the graphic was there so that people could better understand the discharge of a Li-ion battery.....Some obviously do not understand it, sadly!
Please take any queries up with the web site and keep us informed of your progress, OK?
Thanks in advance
There are Li-ion SOC meters, that automatically reset themselves and re-calibrate when charging, I found one here:-
Lithium-Ion State of Charge (SoC) measurement made by coulomb counting allow a measurement error of less than 1%, which allows a very accurate indication of the energy remaining in the battery. Unlike the OCV method, coulomb counting is independent of battery power fluctuations (which cause battery voltage drops), and accuracy remains constant regardless of battery usage.

I did not see a price and its getting late, but I will investigate the method used tomorrow.
Andy
 
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D

Deleted member 25121

Guest
I don't know where that guy got that graph from, but it certainly doesn't represent the type of lithium cells we get in our batteries. It looks like a LiFePO4 one superimposed on normal Li-Iion battery scales.
He found it on "the IoT", the Internet of Things where smart machines communicate with each other. If he'd looked on the web he may have found something that made some sense.
I don't know why he thought that "it appears to be fairly accurate" and then later seemed to deny its accuracy....
But this seems to be his modus operandi, copy, paste & deny.
 
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vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
9,822
3,986
Basildon
Andy, I used to feel sorry for you when you were called Smart Ebiker and they all ganged up on you for being proud of that bike, but now you just fill me with despair. Just like the majority of your posts, that graph is completely misleading. Some guys have suggested that you're just trolling us. Maybe you are or maybe you're just misinformed, but it makes no difference - we'd all be much better off if you just kept away from these technical matters.
 

Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
2,214
562
77
He found it on "the IoT", the Internet of Things where smart machines communicate with each other. If he'd looked on the web he may have found something that made some sense...
For those interested, there is a reasonable explanation here:-
I personally find it most useful, usually very informative, and easily understood.
Naturally, the internet as a whole has some very informative articles as well on just about everything, using both, IMHO, tends to give a really good "overview" of up to date hardware implementation, one should never forget that!
Andy