general charging + solar panel on a converted E bike (how?)

Yves

Pedelecer
Mar 28, 2020
49
7
Hi,

I made my first electric bike with a conversion kit I got from the internet. I attached 3 12V batteries to a 36V controller.
The controller has several wires going to the brakes, motor (36V, 350W), brake lights, on/off switch etc... (in the picture below you can see the circuit as it is now => black circuit)

My question is how to deal with charging.
I tried to find the answer on youtube but most of the time, you don't get the right answer for conversion kits.

What I would like to do is to put on a small solar panel (red circuit) + an additional charger (blue circuit).
The additional charger would be used when I don't have enough power from the solar panel.
Would this be the right way to connect the charger and solar panels to the bike? (just parallel over the batteries?)
+ Is it safe to keep these circuits all connected, even if I switch the batteries on?


35977
Thx

Yves
 

sjpt

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 8, 2018
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I'd connect at most one of the charger, solar controller or bike controller at a time. Depends a bit on how intelligent the various controllers are, and any intelligence in the charger.
 

Nealh

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Aug 7, 2014
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One lithium 36v battery would have been better, more capacity, range and power output.
 

Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
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Hi,

I made my first electric bike with a conversion kit I got from the internet. I attached 3 12V batteries to a 36V controller.
The controller has several wires going to the brakes, motor (36V, 350W), brake lights, on/off switch etc... (in the picture below you can see the circuit as it is now => black circuit)

My question is how to deal with charging.
I tried to find the answer on youtube but most of the time, you don't get the right answer for conversion kits.

What I would like to do is to put on a small solar panel (red circuit) + an additional charger (blue circuit).
The additional charger would be used when I don't have enough power from the solar panel.
Would this be the right way to connect the charger and solar panels to the bike? (just parallel over the batteries?)
+ Is it safe to keep these circuits all connected, even if I switch the batteries on?


View attachment 35977
Thx

Yves
Basically, IMHO, you are wasting your time with a small solar panel. Either a big one, or simply forget the extra complication. Size matters in this case.....
I can see the point of a reasonably sized panel, kept at home, that you plug your bike into when its not in use, but you have not mentioned this.
A larger and efficient panel is usually not cheap, especially if efficient, and it will take years to make any payback, unless you can find one for either nothing, or very much under the market price. Secondhand ones, are secondhand for a reason.....
Guessing only, but are the batteries possibly Lead Acid?
If yes, very inefficient and very heavy for the amount of power they hold. The best efficiency of a LA Battery, is at around 70% of charge sadly....
Once you get above that SOC, efficiency simply gets worse, and if the English language actually allowed it, "and worser!"
Tell me please that they are something more efficient than LA Batteries!
With any such project, to reduce the possibility of a big disappointment, you should always keep "efficiency" foremost in your head. Part of that is finding and purchasing "efficiently!"
Bu we here on KP can help you with design!
Furthermore, every battery (even ones of the same size, same manufacturer, same production batch!) is different to another one, especially in the e-bike world, the (generally) Li-ion cells have to be kept to the peak of performance POSSIBLE, by a BMS.
One battery (36 volt in your case), covered by one BMS.
This BMS has a hugely important job to do to keep the charge within the battery evenly distributed, and to cut power out, if that is not possible anymore.
Your schematic does not show any method of cell/battery balancing.....which could mean that the first battery/cells that get discharged, will be reversed polarised by the ones still supplying power.
This damages the depleted battery/cells, from any chemistry that you might be using, though some tricks with special diodes can protect the empty cells and batteries.
I really applaud your efforts, but to help you further, we would need you to state your goals and how you plan to achieve them, so that we all can help you around the many pitfalls in front of you....Though I myself, knowing quite a bit about power and batteries, would hesitate very long before trying to go in the direction you seem to wish to take.....
The big solar cell, at home for free (not quite the right word!) charging, would on the face of it, appear to be the easiest to achieve I feel, though I am not up to date with current pricing and power output, especially in the UK where some summers, tend to not be that sunny!!
Furthermore, ANY Solar cell array, needs to be correctly orientated during the day, to achieve maximum output - follow the Sun, so to speak!
That in it itself, is a reasonable starting point for such a project I feel....and there are plenty of DIY electronic schematics around to help with that!
Best regards
Andy
 
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Yves

Pedelecer
Mar 28, 2020
49
7
Hi,

Thanks! @Andy-Mat, yes indeed use GLA batteries...The reason why I chose these batteries is because with my limited knowledge of electricity and e-bikes, I wanted to use cheap batteries. All the things I know are learned from YouTube. Just got fascinated about e-bikes.
I wanted to start somewhere although I knew Li batteries were a better buy in terms of efficiency. Wanted to be sure that the things I learned, also worked. So that's why I started using GLA's.

The solar panel is my ultimate goal. When I go to work, my bike stands on the parking lot for 8 hours, would it not be nice if I could just take my bike and drive home without having to plug it in?:) .

But you are absolutely right, for now I should first start to get the batteries charged with a normal charger and get more experienced in the electric system and batteries + add more efficiency to the bike.

First, I would like my charger to be attached to my bike, so I don't need to charge at home. Is this possible with the circuit as mentioned below?

My guess the controller I got is not that intelligent...
As @sjpt mentioned, in that case should there only be one charger or controller connected? What if I use switches in the circuit? For example, when I want to charge, I could close switch 1 and open switch 2?
electricbike3.jpg
 

Scorpio

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 13, 2020
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Portugal Algarve (temporary)
Hi, not sure how to do links on here, but if you put solar into the search bar at the top of the page there have been a few discussions in the past.

Its not something I know much about but I'd expect a system small enough to be portable won't be powerful enough. Neither type will be cheap (more cost-effective to use mains charging unless you already have the parts and are doing it as a fun project)
 
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Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
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Hi, not sure how to do links on here, but if you put solar into the search bar at the top of the page there have been a few discussions in the past.

Its not something I know much about but I'd expect a system small enough to be portable won't be powerful enough. Neither type will be cheap (more cost-effective to use mains charging unless you already have the parts and are doing it as a fun project)
My thoughts exactly.
Though we also need the following question answered:-
Assuming your bike is already running, on fully charged batteries how many miles can you ride?
How far is it to your place of work?
Can you charge from the mains at work, without being accused of stealing power? Assuming you will need to charge there of course.
I would like to tell you and the OP, a joke, to try and explain my present thoughts on the ideas proposed:-
An American tourist, driving a hire car, ended up at the back of beyond in Wales, GPS broken and no idea as to how to get back to his hotel in London.
He sees and old farmer, resting his arms on a gate, and asks him if he could be so kind as to guide him on the road back to London.
The farmer considered the question for about 5 minutes, then he answered" If I wanted to drive to London, I would not start from here!"
My personal thoughts are that the OP should consider buying or building a conventional e-bike, with the regular big battery, that allows him to drive to and from work on one charge, probably with about 50+ miles on one charge.
Later maybe building a charge system with solar energy kept at the work place, with permission,n as in winter, a home system will be in the dark too much of the time. Or buying two batteries, one on charge at home each day the other in use.
I am sure others here can also offer good practical advice as well.
Regards
Andy
 

Yves

Pedelecer
Mar 28, 2020
49
7
Hi,

The batteries are 14 aH. Theoretically, I determined a few months ago that this capacity would be enough for about 7 Miles. The distance to my work place is 1,8 Miles. ( going Home at noon, makes 4x1.8 = 7.2 Miles. ) I was not able to test it’s range as i don’t have a charger or know how to charge the batteries... My batteries would be down after my first test and I would not be able to recharge. I could charge at the mains at work.

Yves
 

Yves

Pedelecer
Mar 28, 2020
49
7
Hi,

The batteries are 14 aH. Theoretically, I determined a few months ago that this capacity would be enough for about 7 Miles. The distance to my work place is 1,8 Miles. ( going Home at noon, makes 4x1.8 = 7.2 Miles. ) I was not able to test it’s range as i don’t have a charger or know how to charge the batteries... My batteries would be down after my first test and I would not be able to recharge. I could charge at the mains at
My thoughts exactly.
Though we also need the following question answered:-
Assuming your bike is already running, on fully charged batteries how many miles can you ride?
How far is it to your place of work?
Can you charge from the mains at work, without being accused of stealing power? Assuming you will need to charge there of course.
I would like to tell you and the OP, a joke, to try and explain my present thoughts on the ideas proposed:-
An American tourist, driving a hire car, ended up at the back of beyond in Wales, GPS broken and no idea as to how to get back to his hotel in London.
He sees and old farmer, resting his arms on a gate, and asks him if he could be so kind as to guide him on the road back to London.
The farmer considered the question for about 5 minutes, then he answered" If I wanted to drive to London, I would not start from here!"
My personal thoughts are that the OP should consider buying or building a conventional e-bike, with the regular big battery, that allows him to drive to and from work on one charge, probably with about 50+ miles on one charge.
Later maybe building a charge system with solar energy kept at the work place, with permission,n as in winter, a home system will be in the dark too much of the time. Or buying two batteries, one on charge at home each day the other in use.
I am sure others here can also offer good practical advice as well.
Regards
Andy
So could it work with the circuit I drawed? With the two switches ?

Thx

Yves
 

Andy-Mat

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 26, 2018
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Its a reasonable theoretical circuit, that in your shoes, I would add some fuses to prevent fires, and then go for it!
And do not forget safety equipment, especially for your eyes, and a CO2 extinguisher!
I and I am sure that all of Pedelec wish you well!
Andy
 

Yves

Pedelecer
Mar 28, 2020
49
7
Its a reasonable theoretical circuit, that in your shoes, I would add some fuses to prevent fires, and then go for it!
And do not forget safety equipment, especially for your eyes, and a CO2 extinguisher!
I and I am sure that all of Pedelec wish you well!
Andy
what if i replace the agm batteries with this one:


because i see the price for a charger for agm is almost the same... here i have a li ion battery + charger.
+ would be safer i guess? + more capacity. Will i still need fuses in this case?
regards

Yves
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
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what if i replace the agm batteries with this one:


because i see the price for a charger for agm is almost the same... here i have a li ion battery + charger.
+ would be safer i guess? + more capacity. Will i still need fuses in this case?
regards

Yves
That battery is no use what so ever the cells will be dud's, think about it ?
10s 4p = 40 cells + a charger etc,etc all for £46, which planet are you on. Good cells are about £2.50 - £ 3 minimum.
 
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Yves

Pedelecer
Mar 28, 2020
49
7
That battery is no use what so ever the cells will be dud's, think about it ?
10s 4p = 40 cells + a charger etc,etc all for £46, which planet are you on. Good cells are about £2.50 - £ 3 minimum.
Ok.., then what battery do you propose? Where do I buy a decent one?
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
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Your small journey of 1.8miles doesn't really warrant a large battery unless you plan on going further a field.
The one you linked to was a soft pack is that what you are after or a hard case battery ?
 
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Yves

Pedelecer
Mar 28, 2020
49
7
Hi
Looking for a soft pack as i will make the case myself. Yes the capacity of 20 aH is more then i would normally need but was asuming i would get that for the same price... 12 to 14 aH would be enough.

Regards
 

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
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Enerprof.de or look on their ebay listing under Enerpower as they sell both soft pack and hard case or simply contact ebikebatteries.co.uk and they will make up any size softpack you need.

An example;
 
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Yves

Pedelecer
Mar 28, 2020
49
7
Enerprof.de or look on their ebay listing under Enerpower as they sell both soft pack and hard case or simply contact ebikebatteries.co.uk and they will make up any size softpack you need.

An example;
Thanks,

Ok, at least this looks a lot safer and easier to charge...
My controller has sort kind of cable lugs at the end. Should I cut these off and solder a XT90 connector on it? (see attachment)

What about the gauge? If the cable thickness of the controller and the battery pack are not the same, could this produce heat or an unsafe circuit?

Will it be possible to charge without deconnecting the battery from the controller and the system?

regards and thanks for the help

Yves
 

Attachments

Nealh

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 7, 2014
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You will need to do something so XT90 is probably the easiest solution.

The controller wire rating will enough with headway for the controller max rating, if you wish to you can if you want de-solder them and re-solder thicker awg wiring to match the battery but really not necessary as the wire length is very short so not an issue. The battery is only 20a continuous with a higher temporary out put, the controller wiring will be ample to cope with the current, if at all worried just feel the wires on a ride for heat.

Charging will be possible if left connected but make sure the system is off otherwise it will draw residual current.
 
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Yves

Pedelecer
Mar 28, 2020
49
7
Enerprof.de or look on their ebay listing under Enerpower as they sell both soft pack and hard case or simply contact ebikebatteries.co.uk and they will make up any size softpack you need.

An example;
Hi, this would be the battery pack i would like to buy. (See below) I wanted to ask you guys first, before i make stupid decisions. What does the 50M stands for? Because i see on their website this make a big difference in the buying price.
https://enerprof.de/en/ebike-batteries/softpacks/36v-10s-batteries/435/softpack-battery-36v-15-ah-bms-20a-xlr-3-with-50m?c=90
 

vfr400

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jun 12, 2011
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Basildon
Hi, this would be the battery pack i would like to buy. (See below) I wanted to ask you guys first, before i make stupid decisions. What does the 50M stands for? Because i see on their website this make a big difference in the buying price.
https://enerprof.de/en/ebike-batteries/softpacks/36v-10s-batteries/435/softpack-battery-36v-15-ah-bms-20a-xlr-3-with-50m?c=90
The spec for the cells is 7.3 amps max continuous x 2P = 14.6 amps. The spec for the battery, which uses those cells is 20 amps max continuous. Hello!

What controller are you going to use?
 
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