giant new twist

flecc · Feb 10, 2007

Thanks Leonardo.

That was for the Twist 2, the NiMh 7 speed hub version.

I've also had some advance feedback from a tester of one of the Twist 1 Li-ion versions with 8 speed hub, and it seems it really needs to be left on the full power setting for mixed terrain to cope with hills.

I've had no feedback on friction (drag), but it sounds as though the Twist motor which was derived from the one in the Suede and Argue models (previously the US Birkestrand Corporation's motorised wheel) still has no freewheel disconnecting the motor. In the Suede and Argue models this was a serious design fault since it resulted in the permanent drag of the motor being driven when on over-run. This meant an inability to fully take advantage of downhill slopes to gain speed and up the average for a journey.

In the new Twist this shouldn't matter if the regeneration switch is used to extract downhill power as charge current. Unfortunately, the feedback I've had so far indicates very little gain if any from this feature.

Our UK A to B magazine have been testing the Twist 1 and the report is due in the February edition out in the next few days. It will be interesting to hear their views as well.
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flecc · Feb 10, 2007

Leonardo said:
What makes me unhappy flecc is if it is true that riding without assistance it is not pleasant... I like very much the "natural feeling" of the old Twist, i.e. the fact that I'm riding a true bicycle... If that drag problem of the motor (excuse me for "friction"!) is confirmed that character of the old Twist is completely destroyed.

I think you're very likely to be right Leonardo. Giant have always been very dependent on others for their electric motor side, and have only got it right once in the old Twist series, partly due to the superb software of that Panasonic unit, but also to the full detachment of the electric system when not using it. The heavy electric Lafree that preceded it was generally thought of as a very poor bike, and the semi recumbent Giant Revive Spirit has also been criticised for it's rather coarse power delivery. The Revive does use a Panasonic motor like that in the old Twist, but cheapened and without the sophisticated control that had.

Like you, I like the "true bike" quality of the old Twist. Earlier this week I was working in my garage and needed something from a DIY store, a six mile round trip. The Twist was to hand with no battery in it, but that didn't matter, I used it just the same. That's not a very good option with nearly all hub motor bikes due to the drag of the orbital gears which has to be pedalled against all the time, and when there's no freewheel to disconnect the motor, it's even worse.

Sadly I don't think we'll see another bike like the old Twist now due to the cost of production, but it would help if manufacturers like Giant made a bit more effort to obtain improved hub motor designs.

Regarding your use of "friction" instead of "drag". Anyone who uses a second language of English as well as you do and also translates from a third language of French into that second language has absolutely no need ever to apologise. Your language abilities are deserving of nothing but respect.
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nigel · Feb 11, 2007

Nigel

That to me is the one of the most important factors in electric bikes can you still ride the bike if the battery is flat as others have said with hub drive there is the drag affect

That is one factor which makes the TWIST so good

it is a great all round pedelec

THE BEST so far

Flying Kiwi · Feb 11, 2007

flecc said:
Sadly I don't think we'll see another bike like the old Twist now due to the cost of production,

While cost may be the official reason that’s been claimed for ceasing production, I cant see why that need be the case, after all, its still the same bits being used generally in the same quantities. In terms of powerplant quality, going by your original Twist powerplant website, perhaps the Twist was superior than most but is this not a good thing. Do we really want a dumbing down of the market to have either hub motor driven bikes at the cheaper end or drivetrain electric motor powered ones at the premium end. There's clearly room for the latter in the medium price market.

but it would help if manufacturers like Giant made a bit more effort to obtain improved hub motor designs.

It would help if such manufacturers actually went to the trouble of designing there own well thought out powerplant - preferably not the simpler to implement comparatively ready made hub motor designs. This means they would need to get designers onboard just for this purpose.

How ludicrous would it be if all car companies went to other manufacturers for their drivetrain assemblies and none produced their own? What would consumer opinion for the brand be like? Already those that commonly use other manufacturers engines aren’t as well respected and this is one of the reasons why. I think the largest electric bike manufacturers are in the best positions to be adopting the design your own powerplant philosophy. Flecc, do you personally think that the cost of assembling the Classic Twist was prohibitive?

Could it be that they saw a easier way to make more profit quicker which would still satisfy many of their customers in flatter countries while offering easier periodic upgrade options (it's easier to change individual components in a hub motor assembly with model revisions than in a drivetrain motorised powerplant as on the Classic Twist)? Given that they already had a (relatively new) hub motor powered bike in the medium price bracket with the Suede and that the new Twist (also with a hub motor) looks set to be sold for a similar price to the old, I cant see how cost can really be the reason. Profit on the other hand….

nigel · Feb 11, 2007

nigel

by flying kiwi
Could it be that they saw a easier way to make more profit quicker which would still satisfy many of their customers
i think that also applied to yamaha i was told by a local dealer that though they sold quite well it was not enough for a huge company like yamaha.nigel.southampton.

Flying Kiwi · Feb 11, 2007

nigel said:
i think that also applied to yamaha i was told by a local dealer that though they sold quite well it was not enough for a huge company like yamaha.

At least they didn't add insult to injury by releasing a new model as similar as chalk to cheese, with the same name selling in a similar price range. Personally I think of Yamaha as a motorcycle brand (having owned one as my first motorbike). Perhaps they may come back to electric bicycles one day, it is a growing market with room for well designed products after all.

flecc · Feb 11, 2007

I think Leonardo's reply indicates a big part of the problem for the old Twist. The prices of those other bikes using the unit are very high, and coupling that to Giant's stated reason for ceasing production indicates one thing very clearly, the price Panasonic charge for the unit is very high, leaving no room for a margin on a reasonably priced bike. That's supported by the way Giant kept moving the range up market to get a better return.

I agree with Flying Kiwi that a huge manufacturer like Giant needs to bring it in house, but they have absolutely none of the necessary background so would have to start at the ground floor. To be successful they'd have to poach the best designers and the manufacturing setup costs would be extremely high. That's not a problem with cars, TV sets, washing machines etc, the size of the mass market can give a return within a reasonable time, but the electric bike market is small and customers are mostly without any knowledge of what constitutes a good bike. That means getting the design right is no guarantee of high sales, and one has only to see the sort of rubbish people continued to buy regardless of the twist being on the market to prove that.

Due to widespread experience and a large and watchful specialist press, many people do know what constitutes a good car and most have a fair idea, so good design there can and does pay off, justifying high investment.

I try hard through this forum to give people a better idea of how to judge these bikes, highlighting the features to watch out for, and I've advanced plans to educate in the subject of hill climbing ability since that's an important area to many buyers but one in which there's an almost complete lack of full understanding. A knowledgeable market is necessary for expansion.

Ultimately I think a mature electric bike market with high design standards will follow an electric car market one once that's established, not hybrids which are a mistaken diversion, but true electrics. That will bring the general public acceptance of electric personal transport. Why do I believe that cars will lead in this and not bikes? Simply because it's cars that people want most, a fact of life.
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nigel · Feb 11, 2007

Nigel

I suppose its sad but true that we will never see another pedelec again like the TWIST unless a company is prepaired to invest into more research and development and find something as good or even better.

Flying Kiwi · Feb 11, 2007

Leonardo said:
Actually, there are still a few pedelecs on the European market which use the Panasonic motor: the Swiss Biketech Flyer, the Dutch Gazelle and the Finnish Helkama, if I’m not wrong, and all of them cost more than the old Twist (and are smaller companies than Giant).

You hit the nail on the head with the fact they are all smaller companies. They're therefore less able to take advantage of bulk purchasing discounts and economies of scale, not to mention mass production. The electric Gazelle is a good example to use regarding pricing. The non-electric versions of similar style cost only a little less than the old Twist cost new (and they weighed only slightly less). Now that they have these electrified models (with the newer Panasonic 36 V Li ion powered motor), they of course cost even more. This model (sorry it's in Dutch: Gazelle - Collectie - Collectie 2007 - Stad Comfort - Easy Glider ) appears to cost about 2099 Euros (~ £1400) so the question is how much of that additional cost is to cover the products actual manufacturing cost and how much is 'luxury product' margin.

Among them the Flyer, with its improved motor and the good hill climbing ability, is the more similar to the old Twist, especially the C-series, whose bottom end models cost around 2200-2600 euros.

The Gazelle Easy Glider at approx 2099 Euros is a closer match I believe. The new Easy Glider also has the newer Li Ion unit similar to those Swiss Flyers. The 8 speed hub also appeals and is higher spec than even the top of the range Twist Comfort ST offered. Best of all, their top of the range model has the option of a manly looking crossbar

So may be one can still have a pedelec as good as the old Twist, but surely not at the same price/quality ratio.

Pricing is the whole issue. Just as some consumers like to buy Lotus cars and other sporty models made in smallish factories by tradespeople, many consumers prefer to purchase mass produced Mazda MX5s, at lower cost. For those sports car customers that option remains.

nigel · Feb 11, 2007

Nigel

I wonder
can they go much further with the hub development is it possibile for a company to produce a bike which is a true all rounder in every aspect given time maybe?

flecc · Feb 11, 2007

There are two other drive-through-gears options in addition, but without sophisticated software, just using throttle control.

The English TGA Electrobike has a Yamaha Easy drive arrangement with the motor just ahead of the bottom bracket and driving one chainwheel of a double or triple set, leaving the others for the rider, in addition to the hub or derailleur gear used. It's only in a shopper style bike now, but they used to have a kit as well, discontinued through lack of demand scale, exactly the problem I've mentioned. Users report up to 30 mph with appropriate gearing.

Cyclone of Taiwan, with a UK presence, market a range of add on motor kits which drive Panasonic fashion onto the chain, and they are very reasonably priced indeed. The range includes 180 watt, 360 watt and 500 watt versions, covering all requirements. Like the Currie motor, it's a touch noisy due to the use of spur gears in both, unlike the expensive helical gears in the Panasonic unit. Again we are back to the cost of investment necessary for improvement against the likelyhood of a return.

And there's another problem. Everyone in this forum knows that I strongly favour a drive-through-gear system, but it's undeniable that it's possible to have legal hub motors doing almost all they can do. I've illustrated this with the eZee Quando which has a single 70" gear and runs to 16 mph plus. With a fit but elderly Twist rider (me), it can pull a 14 kilo fat tyred trailer up a 14% hill. It hauls fair size loads up main road hills. It does both of these very much faster than the Twist, cutting journey times, and it only falls short if asked to pull an extreme weight of a 100 kilo load, a total of 215 kilos with bike, trailer, load and rider. Few would ever want to do that anyway.

Last weekend I rode the Quando south to the notorious Titsey Hill which nature designed to break cyclist's spirits. It's a mile long which starts with a lengthy 20% stretch, gradually easing as it goes up. It was tough going, but I managed it, and on the latter half of the hill, the Quando's extraordinary climbing abilities meant it was doing it alone at 10 mph, allowing me to sit back and get my breath back while the bike still climbed the hill. That's not possible on the Twist due to the lack of throttle control, and it would be much slower even if that was fitted. Just yards from my home there's a short access path that's 21%, and I've climbed that with the Quando. Steeper than 1 in 4.8 is about as bad as it gets, so just imagine what a younger athletic rider would achieve with this bike. And it does all of this in almost total silence.

Of course the Quando is a folder, albeit a long wheelbase one that rides like a normal frame, but it shows that a hub motor can do the job and there's nothing to stop eZee or anyone else making the equivalent as a normal frame bike with full gears for a much lower investment than that necessary for a Panasonic style system. The only thing lacking is the complete lack of gear drag for cycling unaided. You can see the problem for anyone thinking of going the Panasonic route, and it illustrates what I meant when I said I'd like Giant to try harder with hub motors. The eZee bikes and the Quando in particular show what can be done even by a very small company.
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Flying Kiwi · Feb 11, 2007

flecc said:
I agree with Flying Kiwi that a huge manufacturer like Giant needs to bring it in house, but they have absolutely none of the necessary background so would have to start at the ground floor. To be successful they'd have to poach the best designers and the manufacturing setup costs would be extremely high. That's not a problem with cars, TV sets, washing machines etc, the size of the mass market can give a return within a reasonable time, but the electric bike market is small .

If R&D costs are used to justify a very high price on their FIRST totally self built electric bikes then I would agree but if they choose to adopt a more long term pricing and marketing strategy then with hundreds of thousands of electric bike sales worldwide each year, and growing significantly, it needent be the case.

and customers are mostly without any knowledge of what constitutes a good bike

I agree and it's one of the things a good marketing dept should be seeking to change. I don't know about you but when I bought my Twist there wasn't even a brochure, let alone any education to try and persuade me why I should buy a Twist rather than a similar priced (or even cheaper) other brand. Car manufacturers on the other hand actively go down this path and the one I worked for even went to the trouble of providing handy little comparison books for sales staff extolling the advantages their models have over the competition. Manufacturers have to be willing to spend the money on properly marketing a product in order to achieve maximum returns. So often marketing departments incorrectly end up being the section responsible for cutting back on product features or providing spin about why less than ideal features or design should be accepted. I'm reminded of a petroleum company many years ago that proudly advertised petrol with Boron. If fact Boron was a contamininant that they couldn't easily get rid of from the petrol and it offered no benifit to the fuel itself. The fact it was different and marketed with pride resulted in customers buying it though.

That means getting the design right is no guarantee of high sales, and one has only to see the sort of rubbish people continued to buy regardless of the twist being on the market to prove that.

Generally the rubbish products attract the cash strapped, less discerning buyer though. If some effort is actually put into properly marketing and advertising the more expensive products, then some of those budget buyers would be converted.

I think people like the Chings who strike out in a different direction as they have with the powerful eZeebikes are very brave and take quite a risk since they face huge problems.

I'm not going to comment on any specific people and I've only ever met Ken. The whole idea of anyone seeking to be successful in business is that they need to be willing to take risks (hopefully calculated, well researched ones). This is especially so in a fast changing technological field. I'll be happy when manufacturers supplying the UK market (where we have many steep hills) take the leap of producing more electric powered drive train bikes and not just easier to design hub motor powered ones. The hill climbing and flexibility on the flat advantages are clear and such bikes could be sold around the world in countries with flat lands such as Holland with its huge market, through to the UK with its steep hub motor challenging hills and comparitively smaller market. No changes to the stock item would need to be made other than to account for local legislation and differences in the mains and electrical sockets. While its good to have bikes with powerful, fast motors, the limitations of having fixed gears within the hub, along with UK/European legislation limiting the motor power mean that the real grounds for technological breakthroughs are in getting as much of the motor power as possible through to the driving wheel under all possible operating conditions. This isn't possible with the hub motors that are being used and these will only be a compromise answer.

flecc · Feb 11, 2007

I very firmly agree that the way the motor industry does things is the right way to go, but that's an old and mature industry. In it's early decades it was a disgrace, huge numbers of makes of very questionable quality, most going broke within decade or so. The motor trade supporting those vehicles was even worse, exhibiting quite appalling behaviour, and it was well over 50 years before that really improved sufficiently to be acceptable to most.

All of this is evident wholly or in part in today's electric bike market, and it will go through the same pains as it gradually matures. We can but hope that it doesn't take anything like as long.

While I agree that a hub motor is an engineering compromise, I don't agree with your last sentence since the Quando absolutely proves it is possible to do the job as I've clearly shown. All that bike needs is some gears for the rider to improve the cycling experience, the motor already being more than adequate for over 99% of customers, actual or potential.

Only a few people in the very hilliest areas ever tackle anything steeper than 12%, and the Quando does a standing start on that, accelerating to 9 mph, on motor alone. It takes a lot of rider effort to climb 12% at 9mph on the Twist, it being more comfortable at nearer 6/7 mph.

The Quando can also climb 14% on motor alone given a normal slow rolling start. Self evidently, legal hub motors can do the job, albeit offending the purist attitudes of engineers like ourselves.
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nigel · Feb 11, 2007

nigel

Fair enough flecc with regards the hub drive and the quando lets hope there s yet more room for improvment to come but still could it compare to the twist if the battery was flat the twist is still a good bike to ride

flecc · Feb 11, 2007

Definitely not Nigel, the Twist is much the better bike as a bike, and the climb speed comparison is unfair anyway.

The Twist has a peak 390 watt motor and 24 volt system. The Quando has a peak 576 watt motor and a 36 volt system, the second most powerful UK legal production bike in the world, and with a more usable power band than the most powerful one. A bit like comparing a Mondeo to a Ferrari.

My illustration was just to show that a hub motor can do the Twist job within the UK law, and European law when in pedelec mode. No orbital gear hub motor yet can get away from the drag of it's gears when pedalled without power, a drag which increases as the speed rises. I can pedal my Torq unpowered at 13 mph on the flat in still air, but I'm having to work quite hard at it. On the Twist, 16 to 18 mph is much easier than that with the power switched right off.
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Flying Kiwi · Feb 11, 2007

flecc said:
All of this is evident wholly or in part in today's electric bike market, and it will go through the same pains as it gradually matures. We can but hope that it doesn't take anything like as long.

The big difference with this comparison is that I'm I'm talking about technology which is already here and mature - just not being widely *adopted* by most of the cheaper electric bike manufacturers. It's not like Henry Ford had the choice of putting multipoint electronic fuel injection into the Model T. There was a film about a revolutionary car which did incorporate many new technologies, the Tucker I think it was called, now there was a true visionary and risk taker with a brilliant product, alas other aspects let him down.

While I agree that a hub motor is an engineering compromise, I don't agree with your last sentence since the Quando absolutely proves it is possible to do the job as I've clearly shown. All that bike needs is some gears for the rider to improve the cycling experience, the motor already being more than adequate for over 99% of customers, actual or potential.

Although I've never ridden an Ezee bike at all (even though some were there for demo riding at Presteign 2006), I strongly doubt whether hub motor powered bikes *within the UK power regulations* would 'do the job' for 99% of users. The figure would be far lower with many riders slogging away and assuming "well thats how it has to be" from the incorrect assumption that the maximum sustained motor power of 250 Watts was the limiting factor and not the efficiency at putting it on the driving wheel. 250 Watts is really very little to play with hence the importance of getting as much of it as possible through the drive train. I cant help wondering just how much faster on *both* flat and hilly terain (well OK hilly and acceleration if you consider 15 mph is the legal maximum under power) not to mention how much more efficient with limited battery resources that Quando would have been had they implemented a through the gears method of motor power drive. Also how much higher range it would have had over such terrain as a result.

Electric motors just like petrol engines (although to a reduced degree) operate at their peak efficiency and maximum power at particular speeds. While manufacturers can implement electronic switching technology to improve flexibility (as commonly used on trains - the stepping noise that can be heard), it is always at the expense of efficiency and battery consumption increases markedly as a result. A compromise situation is acceptable with trains because they have a ready supply of 'unlimited' electricity, very powerful motors to start with and travel on relatively flat terrain. I'm sorry that you don't appear to want to have manufacturers improve the above issues the way I propose (or at least aren't voicing such intentions) but at lease you accept hub motors are a compromise.

Only a few people in the very hilliest areas ever tackle anything steeper than 12%, and the Quando does a standing start on that, accelerating to 9 mph, on motor alone. It takes a lot of rider effort to climb 12% at 9mph on the Twist, it being more comfortable at nearer 6/7 mph.

So given that the Twists motor is already 240 Watts (very near the legal limit of 250) and you have commented how finely engineered the power plant appears to be on your website, can you explain how a 250 Watt or less hub motor can accomplish this? I can tell you it's certainly not through efficiency gains. Something doesn't add up there, especially if it's a 5 speed Twist you're comparing it to. {Edit: reading the explanation you posted while I was writing this about peak power comparisons does explain it, it doesn't explain the unfair comparison though and I'm pleased you acknowledge that.}

It would be very easy to compensate for inefficiencies by just increasing motor power a little but of course anything beyond 250 Watts would be illegal in the UK. The Quando, although a similar weight to the Twist lite is not a 'full size' bicycle like the Twist and this wouldn't appeal to many buyers of non-folding bikes as a result. Any comparison has to be on a like for like basis. Perhaps the Windsor, Suede or even new Twist may be a more suitable comparison since you bought in the (classic) Twist comparison. I'm sure 250 Watts on an electric skateboard would get you up hills the quickest but how many people would want to buy one of those

flecc · Feb 11, 2007

Much is agreed, but your comments on the Quando and Twist are very unfair and don't acknowledge what I've posted.

The Quando is a lot heavier than the Twist Lite, in part because it's a folder. Exactly the same motor/battery/elctronics combination in the Torq weigh less at 24 kilos, but are compromised there by being geared up 40% for all out speed.

It follows that a 24 kilo bike closely comparable to the weight of the Twist and with all it's features could be on the market, it doesn't have to be a heavy folder. It would have slightly less real world range than the Twist, but would greatly outperform it as I've shown.

In some respects I think you are in denial and refusing to acknowledge what I've posted because it doesn't fit what you want to be true. If I ride the Twist with the trailer and load to the tip, I have to pedal all the time and make a fair input of work on the hills. On the Quando I don't need to do anything if I don't want to until the final 12% hill to home when I do a bit of work.

Where the Quando does 11 mph outward bound without pedalling, the Twist is doing 8 mph with that work I'm putting in, and 11 mph isn't possible on the slope concerned. On the final hill to home, the Quando with a fair degree of input does 10 mph, the Twist with the same input does 5 mph and couldn't do 10 with anything like that rider input.

Ergo, the Quando outperforms the Twist with regard to speed by a substantial margin, and can handle substantial loads when hill climbing. The outperforming is also true when hill climbing without towing, the speed on any climbable hill being much faster. Journey times are always decidedly less with the Quando.

I've always made it clear that I agree that a drive through chain system is superior overall, and one with the Quando's power would be very much better than that bike. But I'm a realist, it isn't going to happen anytime within a reasonable future.

That's the only real difference between us, one of opinion rather than fact, you believe it could happen, I wish it could but won't waste time tilting at windmills since I'm certain it won't.
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