HELP - Can not tighten RHS crank arm - Kalkhoff Endeavor ???

bilabonic

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 20, 2013
294
6
It's the 36v/17Ah, 350w motor with Shimano XT deralluer, it has Shift-Sensor technology - 'A genuine innovation this year - every time you change up or down a gear, power drops away for a matter of milliseconds for optimal gear shifting. This does a number of great things - it extends your gears mechanical lifetime, feels satisfyingly natural and makes for a smoother application of all that power. They had to invent a litte electromechanical gadget to detect gear changes that worked with the motor. They succeeded and the result brings a new feeling of confident power to riding a Kalkhoff electric bike.'

It does have a very big 70Nm of torque.

Cheers
 

bilabonic

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 20, 2013
294
6
Well 50 cycles were great and said you will be very lucky to get 1000 miles out the chain, i had done 400, it now has 3 speed links in it !!!!

They have sent me a new chain - Shimano 10 Speed HG-X which has 138 links and an ebike logo on it !!!!

EVERY other Shimano 10 Speed HG-X chain i have searched has 116 links, not removed the the existing chain to check length, but i am taking a differing route that adds 5 mins to journey BUT requires much less torque.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
It's the 36v/17Ah, 350w motor with Shimano XT deralluer, it has Shift-Sensor technology - 'A genuine innovation this year - every time you change up or down a gear, power drops away for a matter of milliseconds for optimal gear shifting. This does a number of great things - it extends your gears mechanical lifetime, feels satisfyingly natural and makes for a smoother application of all that power. They had to invent a litte electromechanical gadget to detect gear changes that worked with the motor. They succeeded and the result brings a new feeling of confident power to riding a Kalkhoff electric bike.'

It does have a very big 70Nm of torque.

Cheers
When I tried one with that gear-change power-cut switch, it was better than not having one, but was nowhere near solving the problem of clunky gear-changes.
 

103Alex1

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2012
2,228
67
Glad I didn't weaken and buy one of these. Sounds like yet more specification & design flaws in a very pricey bike winding up a big maintenance headache. I still get excited at the thought of riding my self-build but feel no joy at the idea of mounting the Kalkhoff. It's funny how things evolve and you work out what floats your boat ....

Wish i had kept myself build Bafang !!!!
Yes, you should have kept it !
 

Tomtomato

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 28, 2015
388
196
Well 50 cycles were great and said you will be very lucky to get 1000 miles out the chain, i had done 400, it now has 3 speed links in it !!!!
How many miles can we expect from a chain on a 10-speed 200w Kalkhoff bike, with moderate usage, no steep hills, riding on flat paths?

Would it be advisable to replace it proactively every 1,000 miles for instance?

I understand 10-speed chains are narrower, and therefore with a lower life expectancy. However, 1,000 miles would seem quite a low number, and would start sounding like a design flaw (chain not able to sustain the torque).

I have never had concerns before on my non-electric bikes (never changed the chains, despite having my previous bike for 7 years). However, I am concerned that I will be stranded somewhere with my Kalkhoff bike if the chain breaks (and I go much further away with that bike). I bought some replaceable links just in case, but have never fitted those.
 

RobF

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 22, 2012
4,732
2,311
How many miles can we expect from a chain on a 10-speed 200w Kalkhoff bike, with moderate usage, no steep hills, riding on flat paths?

Would it be advisable to replace it proactively every 1,000 miles for instance?

I understand 10-speed chains are narrower, and therefore with a lower life expectancy. However, 1,000 miles would seem quite a low number, and would start sounding like a design flaw (chain not able to sustain the torque).

I have never had concerns before on my non-electric bikes (never changed the chains, despite having my previous bike for 7 years). However, I am concerned that I will be stranded somewhere with my Kalkhoff bike if the chain breaks (and I go much further away with that bike). I bought some replaceable links just in case, but have never fitted those.
I have two Bosch bikes and have yet to see an evidence of them eating chains.

A Kalkhoff crank drive would put similar stress on a chain, so I don't see why yours should wear out quickly.

You could get a chain wear gauge, but they tend to condemn perfectly serviceable chains.

I shall run mine until they start to skip.

As regards a breakdown, it is unlikely the chain will snap and leave you stranded.

Much more likely for it to skip, giving you notice it's time to change.

Inspect the chain regularly, many soldier on unnoticed with cracked or flared side plates.
 
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trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
My other arm is coming loose ALL the time now !!!!
Sick of the bike !!!!
Used mallet to force arm on and tightened to full extent with NO slip on nut.
STILL works loose when i hit the VERY steep hill at my home, plus the creaking noise in embarrassing.

Wish i had kept myself build Bafang !!!!

Rant Over !!!!
you may have to replace the crank arms.
The problem is that the square tappered arms and spindle are made of two different metals, when heated, the contact becomes loose, then the cranks become ovalised.
When you tighten the crank bolts next time, make sure that you hold the spanner still for a few seconds when finish to let the join cool, forming a sort of seal and try not to pedal too hard on the non-drive side.
I am surprised that the Impulse motor designer used square taper BB.
The hollowtech II fixes this design issue.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,249
3,197
It's the 36v/17Ah, 350w motor with Shimano XT deralluer, it has Shift-Sensor technology - 'A genuine innovation this year - every time you change up or down a gear, power drops away for a matter of milliseconds for optimal gear shifting. This does a number of great things - it extends your gears mechanical lifetime, feels satisfyingly natural and makes for a smoother application of all that power. They had to invent a litte electromechanical gadget to detect gear changes that worked with the motor. They succeeded and the result brings a new feeling of confident power to riding a Kalkhoff electric bike.'

It does have a very big 70Nm of torque.

Cheers
Unsurprisingly, these sorts of problems seem to have arisen since Kalkhoff upped the power of their motors whilst simultaneously weakening the drive chain. On my older Panasonic powered Kalkhoff bike with its 8 speed hub gear and 1/8 chain, these problems don't exist and you can expect thousands of miles from both chain and sprockets.

Why they have gone for a more powerful motor, 10 speed gears and their associated flimsy components? It seems like madness. 8 gears is too many on an Ebike, so why embrace all of the disadvantages of 10?

Kalkhoff need to take a step back. If they are to continue with crank drives, it's not "Shift-Sensor Technology" which they need to invest in, it's the development of an agricultural strength 3 or 4 speed hub gear system coupled with a hefty length of chain.

I'm completely out of touch with hub motors and have virtually no knowledge or experience of them. It was interesting to read opinions on another thread that hub motors are becoming more viable as battery technology improves, so maybe this is the future. I still like the idea of crank drives though, the motor and battery as a single unit with no wires or plugs at various points around the frame has an appeal. I've also found it to be a 100% reliable combination and the "bionic" sensation of the power being transmitted in the traditional way through the chain is very satisfying, but not without problems these days, so it would seem.

I'll leave it with Kalkhoff to sort out and continue with my 7 year old 100% reliable bike!
 

JohnCade

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 16, 2014
1,486
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Tend to agree. I like the Pro Connect 9 and tried it out before Christmas. Unlike some of the above I thought the shift technology worked really well and gear changes could be done swiftly and without crunches. But it was let down by the forks and smaller battery. While the 10 speed chain on the better specced Pro Connect 10 is even narrower and must wear out quicker. I think the Yamaha type system is the best way to go with crank drive as it gives the option of a twin chainset. That and 8 speed gears would give you the lower gears for the really steep hills and a higher gear range for level roads. Without compromising on chain durability by going too narrow with 10 speed. 8 speed chains are as cheap as chips too but 10 speed aren’t.

I sold my last road bike when 9 speed was still fairly new fifteen years ago, and I used to change the chain every season when I rode them. I didn’t ride in the winter months but used an indoor trainer at that time. With the Kalkhoff 8 speed Nexus I’m riding now I changed the chain at 1500 miles. I live in a hilly area and the chain gets a lot of torque put through it. It would have gone on longer but it would have almost certainly taken the sprockets with it too, and I was used to changing the chain regularly to save on expensive drive parts with my road bikes.
 
Last edited:

Tomtomato

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 28, 2015
388
196
I have two Bosch bikes and have yet to see an evidence of them eating chains.

A Kalkhoff crank drive would put similar stress on a chain, so I don't see why yours should wear out quickly.

You could get a chain wear gauge, but they tend to condemn perfectly serviceable chains.

I shall run mine until they start to skip.

As regards a breakdown, it is unlikely the chain will snap and leave you stranded.

Much more likely for it to skip, giving you notice it's time to change.

Inspect the chain regularly, many soldier on unnoticed with cracked or flared side plates.
Thank you.

Is your bike Bosch driven bike a 9 or 10 gear bike? I understand the 10 gear ones would have a narrower, more fragile chain.

How many miles are you getting from the chain? I agree that the crank drive technologies are very similar, and therefore the wear should be similar.

A few Kalkhoff owners have reported the chain breaking while being out (one after only around 350 miles). But then, it's not clear what checks and maintenance they were doing.
 
D

Deleted member 4366

Guest
Unsurprisingly, these sorts of problems seem to have arisen since Kalkhoff upped the power of their motors whilst simultaneously weakening the drive chain. On my older Panasonic powered Kalkhoff bike with its 8 speed hub gear and 1/8 chain, these problems don't exist and you can expect thousands of miles from both chain and sprockets.

Why they have gone for a more powerful motor, 10 speed gears and their associated flimsy components? It seems like madness. 8 gears is too many on an Ebike, so why embrace all of the disadvantages of 10?

Kalkhoff need to take a step back. If they are to continue with crank drives, it's not "Shift-Sensor Technology" which they need to invest in, it's the development of an agricultural strength 3 or 4 speed hub gear system coupled with a hefty length of chain.

I'm completely out of touch with hub motors and have virtually no knowledge or experience of them. It was interesting to read opinions on another thread that hub motors are becoming more viable as battery technology improves, so maybe this is the future. I still like the idea of crank drives though, the motor and battery as a single unit with no wires or plugs at various points around the frame has an appeal. I've also found it to be a 100% reliable combination and the "bionic" sensation of the power being transmitted in the traditional way through the chain is very satisfying, but not without problems these days, so it would seem.

I'll leave it with Kalkhoff to sort out and continue with my 7 year old 100% reliable bike!
You raise some very good points there, and so have some others. I don't see it as a fault from Kalkhoff. They're simply responding to what customers want. To me, the fault lies with the understanding of their products on the part of their customers. As you say, what's the point of 10-speed gears on a powerful ebike? Well, some people don't want a powerful ebike. They want to provide as much power as they can themselves, in which case they turn the power down to the minimum and use the 10-speed gears to optimise their own power, but other people want the "best" ebike, so they get the one with 10-speed, thinking it's better than a 9-speed.

The power of the motor can be turned up or down, so it can be the same power as the old Panasonic, if that's what you want. It wouldn't make sense to sell a restricted power version, when you can restrict it yourself, but it's logical that if you put four times as much tension in the chain as a normal cyclist, it's going to wear out much more quickly. 0 Wear goes up exponentially with tension. If you live in a hilly area or you're unfit so that you turn the power up to the maximum, a 10-speed is a poor choice. You need the one with the strongest chain and sprockets.

To me this whole situation is more a matter of fashion over function, and one-upmanship. Choose a bike that suits your needs, use it in a way that's commensurate with the design, and you will get many happy miles out it. Of course some people don't care. They're happy to pay the price for their one-upmanship. Horses for courses.
 

JohnCade

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 16, 2014
1,486
736
You raise some very good points there, and so have some others. I don't see it as a fault from Kalkhoff. They're simply responding to what customers want. To me, the fault lies with the understanding of their products on the part of their customers. As you say, what's the point of 10-speed gears on a powerful ebike? Well, some people don't want a powerful ebike. They want to provide as much power as they can themselves, in which case they turn the power down to the minimum and use the 10-speed gears to optimise their own power, but other people want the "best" ebike, so they get the one with 10-speed, thinking it's better than a 9-speed.

The power of the motor can be turned up or down, so it can be the same power as the old Panasonic, if that's what you want. It wouldn't make sense to sell a restricted power version, when you can restrict it yourself, but it's logical that if you put four times as much tension in the chain as a normal cyclist, it's going to wear out much more quickly. 0 Wear goes up exponentially with tension. If you live in a hilly area or you're unfit so that you turn the power up to the maximum, a 10-speed is a poor choice. You need the one with the strongest chain and sprockets.

To me this whole situation is more a matter of fashion over function, and one-upmanship. Choose a bike that suits your needs, use it in a way that's commensurate with the design, and you will get many happy miles out it. Of course some people don't care. They're happy to pay the price for their one-upmanship. Horses for courses.
I agree with you, with the proviso that it is useful to have low gears and high gears if you live in a very hilly area but want to go fast on the flat bits too. That means one more gear than an 8 speed really at least, if you’re to keep a very low once in a blue moon gear. But 10 speed isn’t the way to do it with a crank drive. A twin chainset is better IMO. It was hard to find a 5 speed cassette when I wanted one twenty years ago. But if available that and the thick chains they use might be even better with a twin chainset up front.
 

RobF

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 22, 2012
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Thank you.

Is your bike Bosch driven bike a 9 or 10 gear bike? I understand the 10 gear ones would have a narrower, more fragile chain.

How many miles are you getting from the chain? I agree that the crank drive technologies are very similar, and therefore the wear should be similar.

A few Kalkhoff owners have reported the chain breaking while being out (one after only around 350 miles). But then, it's not clear what checks and maintenance they were doing.
One of my bikes is 10 speed, the other hub gears.

I don't keep records, but it looks like the hub chain will last forever.

No detectable wear on the pesky gauge after more than two years.

Hub gear chains do last because the chain line is always straight, and the chain is not being dragged across a rear cassette.

Another plus point is you can run cogs with all full sized teeth because the chain does not need to be derailed.

If you look at the teeth on the rings of your bike, you will see they are different shapes, some much shallower than others.

Good for smooth changes, but bad when things wear a bit.
 

lordvincent

Pedelecer
Jan 23, 2015
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Don't grease it. You have to degrease it. That means remove any grease/oil with solvent (petrol).
Resurrecting an old thread, but my local Evans advised me to grease the square taper before re-assembly; why should this not be done?
 

RobF

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 22, 2012
4,732
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Grease on the taper will encourage the crank arm to move fractionally in use.

This 'worrying' movement can increase over time, rounding the square or the crank end.

Clean and dry is the way to go.
 
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D C

Esteemed Pedelecer
Apr 25, 2013
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Resurrecting an old thread, but my local Evans advised me to grease the square taper before re-assembly; why should this not be done?
I think it may depend on the quality of the components and the tolerances involved, if they aren't a good fit to start with I wouldn't grease them.
Having said that, I've always used copper grease on the tapers of several bikes for a great many years and though easy to get off when I needed to, I've never had them come loose on their own.

Dave.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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I always apply a very thin film of copper grease on the tapers too, just enough to colour the surface. It's never caused a problem.
 
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lordvincent

Pedelecer
Jan 23, 2015
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Bit confused now, and looking online it turns out that there is an enormous controversy about this, with zealous adherents on both sides of the grease debate..

I can see a bit of 'rouging' on one of the spindles, which apparently is probably Al Oxide from the crank arm caused by lack of grease? I don't know. Kalkhoff greased them when new apparently, so since I'm fitting a new crank arm I might as well apply a smear of grease..